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Biggus Dickus
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I've exactly the same thought - why not order a ZL1 before they go bye-bye (Assuming this will be a track-toy)?
Biggus Dickus
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Ehh - as long as your seminal vesicles are emptied, are looks that important?
Blackgloves
Member
Thanks for your opinion. I just purchased a 23' GT, 2 weeks ago. If there had been more options for my budget I would have bought a Camaro. Love my Mustang however
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SRT
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I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but the transmission in the ZL1 and Mach 1 is no comparison. C'mon guys, put your bias aside, TR6060 owns the shitty tremec in the gt350/mach 1.
Ford shot themselves in the foot and any potential owner that buys the scamhorse. Lets wake the fuck up ppl. Any base level mustang (that means regular 5.0 motor) will plummet in value, this has been repeated several times over for every generation. Nothing is changing with S650. Do not pay nearly 70k, hell even 60k! Actually dont even pay over $45k for a new GT, even if it was loaded. Save it for the more special edition Mustangs.
Also these mustangs as far as we know arent tunable and updates are over the air wifi updates. Fuck that. Not a camaro fan, but I will take a ZL1 over any new mustang, if I had to buy new.
Ford shot themselves in the foot and any potential owner that buys the scamhorse. Lets wake the fuck up ppl. Any base level mustang (that means regular 5.0 motor) will plummet in value, this has been repeated several times over for every generation. Nothing is changing with S650. Do not pay nearly 70k, hell even 60k! Actually dont even pay over $45k for a new GT, even if it was loaded. Save it for the more special edition Mustangs.
Also these mustangs as far as we know arent tunable and updates are over the air wifi updates. Fuck that. Not a camaro fan, but I will take a ZL1 over any new mustang, if I had to buy new.
SheepDog
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tdstuart
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Regarding modding the dark horse to make it faster than the ZL1...
I think I've seen videos of 10-speed N/A 5.0s beating ZL1s but I don't know how much effort it would take for the Dark Horse with the manual.
Also if you are looking at them as track cars then just making the dark horse faster in a straight line probably won't make you win on the track.
The best-case scenario for the Dark Horse is that you can go FBO E85 and stay N/A (Still costs a few grand). But if owners can only run pump gas and need to go boost, that can be anywhere from 7-13k dollars more than the base price.
Like @AZlb5.0 said, when really modifying the cars the 5.0 is a better platform for power. Did a quick look on Camaro forums and people recommend staying under or around 700whp. Lots of people push stock coyotes way past that. Throw in some pistons and rods and you can live at 1000+whp.
But I think for the average person, if you like the looks of the zl1 and don't mind the visibility, it seems to be a better choice than the dark horse for a very similar price.
I think I've seen videos of 10-speed N/A 5.0s beating ZL1s but I don't know how much effort it would take for the Dark Horse with the manual.
Also if you are looking at them as track cars then just making the dark horse faster in a straight line probably won't make you win on the track.
The best-case scenario for the Dark Horse is that you can go FBO E85 and stay N/A (Still costs a few grand). But if owners can only run pump gas and need to go boost, that can be anywhere from 7-13k dollars more than the base price.
Like @AZlb5.0 said, when really modifying the cars the 5.0 is a better platform for power. Did a quick look on Camaro forums and people recommend staying under or around 700whp. Lots of people push stock coyotes way past that. Throw in some pistons and rods and you can live at 1000+whp.
But I think for the average person, if you like the looks of the zl1 and don't mind the visibility, it seems to be a better choice than the dark horse for a very similar price.
SRT
Active Member
At this point in time the 22+ mustangs cannot be tuned, so even going FBO is pointless when a ZL1 is a pulley swap or even going e85 is that much easier.
To me the scamhorse with its adm + no tune = no brainer going with ZL1 at MSRP instead. The last year ZL1 shouldn't depreciate (unlike a base level v8 model we normally see tank in value) if this is GM's last manual muscle car.
MAGS1
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tdstuart
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Ya, I was assuming it could be tuned.
If not I highly doubt the Ford Performance N/A tunes will let you beat a zl1. So you will have to drop $10k+ on a Whipple kit. If the car cant be tuned.
Unless you really don't like the Camaro look or interior or view, I think it would be a great option.
SheepDog
Well-Known Member
The other issue with the ZL1 is that fueling is a problem. The LT4 is DI only, so to really get more power (like 900 Wheel +) you have to upgrade the DI injectors and HPFP, which costs as much as a ESS or Vortech Supercharger kit for the Coyote. a GT with a Whipple, ESS, Odin etc, will destroy a ZL1, for a lot less money.
Idaho2018GTPremium
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The OEM fuel system on a ZL1 is good for up to around 700 whp, depending on the dyno. You can get more power with some fuel system upgrades without having to upgrade the HPFP, but certainly can go much higher with a fully upgraded fuel system and upgraded camshaft. Doesn't the Coyote need new injectors with a supercharger, or at least beyond a certain whp as well?
As far as supercharging a Coyote to beat a ZL1 - sure, that can be done, but I have personally known 5 people with 700+ rwhp Coyotes...3 of the 5 broke transmissions and other stuff at that power level and the two that didn't only drive on the street where they can't get enough traction to break drivetrain parts. A ZL1 will run all day and night at that power level since its built with an upgraded drivetrain. A mildly boosted Coyote might be similar or slightly quicker than a ZL1, but not quicker than a FBO+E40 ZL1. To beat a FBO+E40 ZL1, a Coyote has to go more boost, which tends to break things sometimes.
I think there's ONE video of an E85 bolt on A10 Coyote walking a stock ZL1, but I don't believe the GT owner is forthright about his modifications and likely weight reduction (he claimed full weight). Most E85 A10 GTs will get walked by a stock ZL1. Or something was wrong w/ the ZL1 (its not unheard of for the intercooler circuit to have air in it, causing significantly reduced power).
As far as hp limits...the LT4 in the ZL1 can handle 1,000+ on the stock internals since they are fully forged. Perhaps the 700 whp you saw was the LT1, because that is more limited. OR maybe, as I mentioned above, you saw disussions about a ZL1 being limited to around 700 whp on a stock fuel system. Speaking of near 700 whp in a ZL1, there's several ways to get there (or close to it): E40+ported s/c+pulley+headers OR simply swapping the stock supercharger with a Magnusson 2.7 liter and a good tune on pump gas are the two easiest ways. If going with pump gas on the stock s/c it's a little harder since it will be knock limited, esp. if one upgrades the pulleys.
Hack
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The 6060 is strong and heavy. So if your goal is high HP, then the 6060 would be preferred. If your goal is having a light car that's quick around a track, the 6060 is a boat anchor.
Does GM put a better shifter in the ZL-1 compared to the SS? The shifter in the SS is terrible. I'm not saying Ford's Mustang shifters are great, but GM really cheaped out on that.
Depending on what you want to do, I agree buying a used Mustang is a great way to go. Much cheaper than new, whereas some cars always cost way too much to get into no matter their age. I've looked at used Camaros a few times and they aren't worth the money IMO.
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