2016 GT350 Sequential Gearbox?

[thePill]

This is a piggy back off the 2016 SVT Automatic thread. I'd first like to say, I DO NOT think a vehicle with a specific mission, in this case, road, track and circuit, should offer an automatic transmission. Even with paddle shifts, just leave it out. Its not because an automatic can't stay in the powerband, older transmissions did, but, these new autos allow you to ride out any gear. The issue is more with initial cost of R&D, powertrain and engineering. It also forces them to recertify the automatic equipped cars for both fuel mileage and emissions because it would produce another test group. This cost money, which is revisited on the customer.

Now... with that said, and if the GT350 ends up being as serious as my spies tell me... I think its time to get focused...

I believe a sequential Getrag would be a fine attraction in the GT350. It would also be a bonus to somehow make it work from the 6M1500. It is a highly flexible transmission but I'm just not sure it could be done...

Anyway, what do you guys think?

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[w3rkn]

Why not just a DCT..

 

[Rated R]

I think that over time if Ford wants to stay relevant in comparison with other cars then they need to offer a DCT, PDK type box. I'm torn as I like manuals but one cannot deny the efficiency of these higher end manumatics.

 

[thePill]

The underlying issue with a DCT (or PDK in Porsches case) would be its compatibility in organized motorsport and class competition. New automatics are fantastic however, keeping rulebooks in mind, there is no place for an automatic on a vehicle focused on a particular task such as road racing. A track day cruiser would be more than proper, your Super Tourer, your GT500 and ZL1's.

I've read articles that defend the use of DCT's in performance cars, and for the most part, I agree with most. They do keep pace with the manual, car for car. Sadly, none of those car enthusiasts/journalist keep actual racing in mind when defending their position on the matter.

I'm not eager to take on the weight of a DCT as well. They are well over 200lbs, 250lbs maybe... I say, keep the paddles and mate 'em to a sequential manual... especially if a flat plane crank is ever used. It would be all over a DCT, especially with an electric clutch.

 

[w3rkn]

what are the inherent advantages, over dct..?

 

[OppoLock]

what are the inherent advantages, over dct..?

Weight and durability?

 

[WestRace]

DCT has two smaller clutches therefore may not be able to handle the torque of the larger V8 without extra cost. I think a better alternative is using something similar to BMW SMG. It is basically a regular stock manual but with a clutch operated by some type of hydraulic or motor. Sure the clutch engage is not as smooth and the speed is not quite as quick as the DCT but I think that may be the cost effective way to go.
On the BMW, some people actually can just reverse the SMG to the regular manual. And being like a regular manual, it can handle as much torque as you want.

 

[Trackaholic]

Sequentials are great for racing due to their simplicity, robustness, and low weight.

However, for a street car they are not as smooth as a DCT or torque converter automatic. Nor is the single clutch automated manual. Every review of a car with a sequential or single clutch automatic pretty strongly pans the feel and performance of that style transmission. From the Lambos, to the Audi R8, to the LFA, they all had transmissions that were not well liked. When Audi switched to the dual clutch in the R8 the magazines loved the change.

Given that these are street cars, Ford needs to focus their efforts on what makes a great street car. They do not need to put a racing transmission in the street car, or worry about rule books. Nobody is racing these things stock anyway, and as we see, sanctioning bodies are willing to make allowances where necessary to get cars into the field.

Limiting the capability of a street car meant for the track due to adherence to a rule set designed around race cars does not make sense. IMO of course.

-T

 

[WestRace]

Sequentials are great for racing due to their simplicity, robustness, and low weight.

However, for a street car they are not as smooth as a DCT or torque converter automatic. Nor is the single clutch automated manual. Every review of a car with a sequential or single clutch automatic pretty strongly pans the feel and performance of that style transmission. From the Lambos, to the Audi R8, to the LFA, they all had transmissions that were not well liked. When Audi switched to the dual clutch in the R8 the magazines loved the change.

Given that these are street cars, Ford needs to focus their efforts on what makes a great street car. They do not need to put a racing transmission in the street car, or worry about rule books. Nobody is racing these things stock anyway, and as we see, sanctioning bodies are willing to make allowances where necessary to get cars into the field.

Limiting the capability of a street car meant for the track due to adherence to a rule set designed around race cars does not make sense. IMO of course.

-T

I have a M3 with SMG and it's not that bad. My friend has a M5 V10 with SMG and it's totally acceptable and the car actually feels more refine than most so called family sedans. People who usually complain about SMG are those who has never driven one. With faster and more affordable computer cost, it will only get better. I personally think the SMG with its character may actually plays well into the Mustang performance edge. At the Mustang price point, DCT is just out of the question and especially with the 5.0 torque output, a DCT that can tolerate its 5.0 output will just cost too much. The reason the next C7 Z06 will use an torque converter automatic because no DCT will be able handle the torque. Those DCT being used in Audi, Porsche ... well we don't know how reliable they will be given the torque being subjected to. The C7 development team actually had installed a third party DCT in one of their prototypes and they said it "just blew up", and that pretty much the end of it.

As for the torque converter, no matter how good it may be, still does not have the direct mechanical connection between the engine and the driveshaft and therefore won't give you a fine control of the throttle and ultimately the car. One steers the car using the throttle as much as the steering wheel.

 

[nametoshowothers]

I have a M3 with SMG and it's not that bad. My friend has a M5 V10 with SMG and it's totally acceptable and the car actually feels more refine than most so called family sedans. People who usually complain about SMG are those who has never driven one. With faster and more affordable computer cost, it will only get better. I personally think the SMG with its character may actually plays well into the Mustang performance edge. At the Mustang price point, DCT is just out of the question and especially with the 5.0 torque output, a DCT that can tolerate its 5.0 output will just cost too much. The reason the next C7 Z06 will use an torque converter automatic because no DCT will be able handle the torque. Those DCT being used in Audi, Porsche ... well we don't know how reliable they will be given the torque being subjected to. The C7 development team actually had installed a third party DCT in one of their prototypes and they said it "just blew up", and that pretty much the end of it.

As for the torque converter, no matter how good it may be, still does not have the direct mechanical connection between the engine and the driveshaft and therefore won't give you a fine control of the throttle and ultimately the car. One steers the car using the throttle as much as the steering wheel.

There are few dual clutch cars that do work such as the


Mclaren P1 twin-turbocharged and intercooled DOHC 32-valve 3.8-liter V-8, 727 hp, 531 lb-ft;

La Ferrari - DOHC 48-valve 6.3-liter V-12, 789 hp, 516 lb-ft;

Porsche Turbo S - Displacement: 232 cu in, 3806 cc
Power: 560 hp @ 6500 rpm
Torque: 553 lb-ft @ 2200 rpm

Nissan GTR


Porsche 918 Displacement: Displacement: DOHC 32-valve 4.6-liter V-8, 608 hp, 391 lb-ft;


and for us mustang guys a potential option from tremec

900 Nm TR-9007 Dual Clutch Transmission Features at a Glance:
Seven forward speeds
Modular design for rear wheel drive (RWD), all wheel drive (AWD) and transaxle platforms
Torque capacity of 900 Nm (664 lb-ft)
10,000 RPM maximum input speed
Gear ratio spread: 5.6 performance oriented
Integrated mechatronics

I drove the SMG transmissions and did not like them. To each his own. I would also order a manual over the SMG automated manual. I do like the dual clutch. Pill's suggestion of a sequential may have some merit - work for Bugatti!

I think that the early single clutches were problematic and a general pain in the ass - ok on the track but horrible in the city. The dual clutch fixed most of that. The Pagani is describe in the review comparing shift smoothness to a refrigerator falling over! All of these transmissions have cost, weight and relaibility issues in their early life. I do not think they are ready for the cost and warranty impact of these in the mustang, camaro and corvette yet. But the day will come and we will see them.

 

[Wildcat]

Post deleted.

 

[DivineStrike]

Lol, bringing up cars that cost over $100k when talking about DCT durability and then implying a Mustang could just simply do the same thing. Just lol. I don't want the extreme added costs of beefing up the transmission like these exotics. And I don't know if it's still an issue or not but wasn't Nissan voiding warranties on the GTR if you so much as turned off traction control because people were blowing up their transmissions?

 

[Stuntman]

The underlying issue with a DCT (or PDK in Porsches case) would be its compatibility in organized motorsport and class competition. New automatics are fantastic however, keeping rulebooks in mind, there is no place for an automatic on a vehicle focused on a particular task such as road racing. A track day cruiser would be more than proper, your Super Tourer, your GT500 and ZL1's.

I've read articles that defend the use of DCT's in performance cars, and for the most part, I agree with most. They do keep pace with the manual, car for car. Sadly, none of those car enthusiasts/journalist keep actual racing in mind when defending their position on the matter.

I'm not eager to take on the weight of a DCT as well. They are well over 200lbs, 250lbs maybe... I say, keep the paddles and mate 'em to a sequential manual... especially if a flat plane crank is ever used. It would be all over a DCT, especially with an electric clutch.

FWIW, there are talks among the officials at IMSA to allow automatic and DCT and automatic transmissions into CTSCC in the near future because that's the way of the future. This would open the door to a lot of cars like the C63 which would be awesome to see. Heck, you can't get a Porsche GT3 with a manual anymore.

On that note, both the 991 GT3 street car and GT3 racecars use paddleshift transmissions (albeit street = dual clutch, race = sequential box). There's no question that DCT makes a car FASTER on track, not just 'keep pace' with a manual.

I have a M3 with SMG and it's not that bad. My friend has a M5 V10 with SMG and it's totally acceptable and the car actually feels more refine than most so called family sedans. People who usually complain about SMG are those who has never driven one. With faster and more affordable computer cost, it will only get better. I personally think the SMG with its character may actually plays well into the Mustang performance edge. At the Mustang price point, DCT is just out of the question and especially with the 5.0 torque output, a DCT that can tolerate its 5.0 output will just cost too much. The reason the next C7 Z06 will use an torque converter automatic because no DCT will be able handle the torque. Those DCT being used in Audi, Porsche ... well we don't know how reliable they will be given the torque being subjected to. The C7 development team actually had installed a third party DCT in one of their prototypes and they said it "just blew up", and that pretty much the end of it.

As for the torque converter, no matter how good it may be, still does not have the direct mechanical connection between the engine and the driveshaft and therefore won't give you a fine control of the throttle and ultimately the car. One steers the car using the throttle as much as the steering wheel.

I think the AMG cars have a locking torque converter, and are quite good, like your comment of people complaining about SMG transmissions (which I agree are far from as bad as everyone says they are). I never minded E46 M3 or E60 M5's SMG transmissions, or 360/F430's single clutch sequential transmissions since they shift faster than most people and with a brief lift of the throttle during the shift, they can be quite smooth. However, the DCT transmissions in modern ///M cars, PDK, GTR's, & 458 Italias are worlds better than SMG, are much faster, and are pretty damn good and fun to drive.

0.02

 

[nametoshowothers]

Lol, bringing up cars that cost over $100k when talking about DCT durability and then implying a Mustang could just simply do the same thing. Just lol. I don't want the extreme added costs of beefing up the transmission like these exotics. And I don't know if it's still an issue or not but wasn't Nissan voiding warranties on the GTR if you so much as turned off traction control because people were blowing up their transmissions?

My point was that they can be made to work with high power cars.

My second point is that we will see in a mustang duct when they are cheap and reliable enough for a mustang

Yes Nissan had issues, and no I am not advocating that we get these any time soon, but the writing is on the wall that is the future

 

[WestRace]

My point was that they can be made to work with high power cars.

My second point is that we will see in a mustang duct when they are cheap and reliable enough for a mustang

Yes Nissan had issues, and no I am not advocating that we get these any time soon, but the writing is on the wall that is the future

Ford actually has DCT but only offered for the Fiesta and Focus for good reason because it doesn't have to handle much power and does not have to pull any heavy loads since those cars are pretty light.
I don't see a DCT making any economic sense for a $35K car with 450hp. The Nissan DCT has had a lot of issues. I would bet the DCT on the Ferrari or Porsche may actually cost almost the same as the Mustang GT.

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