2015 Mustang Weight Gain

[SStormtrooPer]

Comments in blue --

- S550 is on a new, higher tech platform that S197

Do we really know that the S550 is going to be a higher tech platform? Is this just assumed because it's been almost 10 years between platform changes? More on this later. One can assume with a very high amount of certainty that the platform the car will ride on will be far advanced over the current platform. If not, then why even move it from the current platform? Keeping it on the same platform could have saved a ton of money and development time.

- S550 is getting smaller, even if only a little

Do we actually know this to be true? A lot of people who have allegedly worked on the car or seen it have said the dimensions are about the same except for maybe a slightly lower ride height, wider track and somewhat smaller overhangs. People have indeed said at first glance that it appears about the same size, however, people working on it or seeing it have also said it is lower, and has shorter overhangs -- which leads to argue smaller dimensions.

- Ford has Cafe requirements to meet

- Ford has CAFE requirements to meet based on fleet average. They've been pushing real hard with smaller displacement Ecoboost and hybrids across their lineup with the Focus, Fusion Fiesta etc. In spite of the Mustang perhaps? Also and I could be totally off base (correct me if I am) but the harshest CAFE standards kick in 2025 so Ford could technically ride it out until then and change platforms sooner than it has. Yes, they could. But they won't. It is going to be a constant project to meet the cafe goals, and it won't happen with a flip of a switch unless they want to pass a ton of expense to the consumer. They have to start now, and they have to get as much out of every car in their line-up. To count on most of your cars to pull the weight of a few would mean they would have to get more economy out of the volume sellers at a higher cost. They can't let the volume sellers help a car that is not a huge money maker slide by. Aside from even cafe, European buyers care about fuel economy, and an EB4 isn't going to be very efficient if it has to lug around a 3800+ lb. car.

- Mustang fans have been asking for weight reduction for years

Well there's no denying this one but those requests have been mostly ignored by Ford. Hopefully they actually listen and realize that they will get crushed by competition if they dont this time around. They have been mostly ignored -- and that is because up until 2010 they had no competition. But now with Camaro moving to what is known to be a significantly lighter platform, and Chrysler's desires to build a smaller Challenger replacement, there is no denying they MUST listen to the customers.

- Ford has committed to using exotic or lighter materials on its cars

Not sure where this one is coming from. I haven't heard Ford committing to this. They've been developing some techniques for mass production of carbon fiber pieces and they have the budget on the F150 to switch over to heavy use of aluminum but I'm not sure the Mustang will benefit from that (yet). I was just referencing this as a general mind set at Ford -- they wouldn't develop these processes if they weren't going to apply them to all their vehicles(unless of course they want to lose money). Further, if they can shave 700 lbs. off of the F150 with aluminum, why would they even question using enough to shave 150 of off the Mustang. IMO committing to use on only one vehicle is as good as committing to it across the line, at least as far as a business decision is concerned.

- Ford has committed to using less platforms

This can cut both ways. A lot of people on this forum have been saying that due to platform sharing it is possible the S550 will be modified from the CD4 platform which is a C/D mid sized sedan platform and that proportions have remained basically the same. This worries me because rumors about a 3-400lb lighter car only make sense if the car's dimensions have decreased by a lot or they are using copious amounts of aluminum/carbon fiber which conflicts with their other goal of keeping this thing affordable. Platform sharing means that a chassis built to support the minimal needs of a Fusion for example have to be made stronger for the demands of a Mustang that may be pushing up to 600hp. Sure the Fusion is lighter while being bigger right now but you can't expect they would just cut off the rear 2 doors and there's your Mustang. Whatever modifications will be needed to rework the FWD/transverse to AWD/RWD application would likely add weight as well. Have you seen which cars will be on CD4? ALL of them -- including Flex, Edge, and Explorer. If it is bigger than a Focus, it will be on CD4. This is the "One Ford" goal, and you don't put that many cars on a platform unless it is scalable, economically feasible, and gets you to your end goal of efficiency. That said, I still struggle with this one -- while CD4 is all of the above, it is not a platform that lends itself to the muscle car/sports car/pony car segment, nor any future 2 door Lincoln that we are hearing rumors about. If it is on CD4, and Ford truly needs to do that much to it to make it work, then they are not listening to their customers, and are ceding victory to GM and Chrysler, knowing what they WILL have a year later.

- Ford has committed to shedding weight on ALL of its cars

As far as I know this is true and the reasons behind why they have committed to it are probably the best reasons for why it should be lighter. The competition is not messing around and the trend is most definitely towards lighter more efficient cars. I would hope that this commitment extends to its most iconic brand too... and one that has put on a ton of weight over the years.[/QUOTE] You said it -- "iconic brand". Mustang is not a Ford in most people eyes, it is its own brand. That said, it will not continue to sell on redesigns and name alone. For a long time people were sheep to the American automakers, and we saw how far that got Detroit. That is a thing of the past. For Ford to have the attitude that they can increase the weight yet again, and BS their way out of it WILL be detrimental to the Mustang because people are not going to buy in to that non-sense when everyone else is trimming down.

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[Melino]

I really still have a hard time wrapping my head around using a modified CD4 for the Mustang. As Jesse pointed out, there are enough FWD Ford cars sharing that platform that it's safe to say there is a good deal of cost sharing there for Ford to have gotten their money's worth.

I have always thought that the S550 would be developed strictly with the a 2-door sports coupe in mind. Sure, current volume may not support such a decision but that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy if you can't deliver a Mustang that people want to see for the next generation. The point is to take it to that level and then leverage that for a larger future Lincoln luxury sports coupe. If it is to share with CD4, I can totally see why it could pack on some weight.

 

[Nukem High]

If the weight gain were for a 2015 mustang built on the S197 platform I think many would overlook it and chalk it up to more safety equipment and features. The most troubling thing here is that this sets in stone the minimum weight for the next 7-10 years. Chevy could very well be on its way to transitioning the next platform for the Camaro by then.

 

[SStormtrooPer]

The most troubling thing here is that this sets in stone the minimum weight for the next 7-10 years. Chevy could very well be on its way to transitioning the next platform for the Camaro by then.

Chevy is moving the Camaro to the Alpha platform in 2016. Expect it to be around the same weight as, or slightly heavier than the Cadillac ATS: ~3400-3550 lbs.

 

[5.0GT]

Chevy is moving the Camaro to the Alpha platform in 2016. Expect it to be around the same weight as, or slightly heavier than the Cadillac ATS: ~3400-3550 lbs.

I expect the Camaro to go on a medium diet, nothing too drastic. I would be surprised if it even goes to 3500 b/c the C7 is like 3300 and no way will the Camaro be close to that.

 

[Nukem High]

Chevy is moving the Camaro to the Alpha platform in 2016. Expect it to be around the same weight as, or slightly heavier than the Cadillac ATS: ~3400-3550 lbs.

I should have been clearer -I was referring to the platform after the Alpha. Given the 8 year cycle of the current, Chevy will not be far behind with its 7th gen platform for the Camaro. The time to nip it in the bud is now, otherwise risk playing catchup for decades to come.

 

[SStormtrooPer]

I expect the Camaro to go on a medium diet, nothing too drastic. I would be surprised if it even goes to 3500 b/c the C7 is like 3300 and no way will the Camaro be close to that.

I am guessing it will be closer to the top end -- so around 3550. Regardless, that is lighter than the current Mustang, which makes it even worse if S550 bulks up more.

There was a huge advantage with S197 being over 200 lbs. lighter than the Gen 5 Camaro, not to mention prior years also sharing that advantage.

 

[5.0GT]

I am guessing it will be closer to the top end -- so around 3550. Regardless, that is lighter than the current Mustang, which makes it even worse if S550 bulks up more.

There was a huge advantage with S197 being over 200 lbs. lighter than the Gen 5 Camaro, not to mention prior years also sharing that advantage.

3600 IMO, Camaro fans love and will love their future bloated bumble bees.

 

[Dyno]

Jesse - all your points sound pretty valid to me. Whether Ford sees it this way we don't know. It seems the one thing we know for sure is that it will have IRS, which is likely to add weight. We also know Ford has said its goal is to shed weight in its future vehicles. How those two battle it out I don't know, but all the other rumors about Mustang II-like proportions and 400 pounds lighter are from news outlets - some which don't have a great track record.

I agree with everyone that weight is very important and there are countless reasons they should make it lighter, but will this really be the death knell that some are predicting? If lighter means better sales, why has the Camaro been outselling the Mustang so badly? And the sales data that was just posted in another thread shows the Challenger is creeping up, despite a big weight disadvantage.

Is it really design? I thought the S197's were the most beloved Mustang design since the 65? There has got to be more going on here.

 

[SStormtrooPer]

I agree with everyone that weight is very important and there are countless reasons they should make it lighter, but will this really be the death knell that some are predicting? If lighter means better sales, why has the Camaro been outselling the Mustang so badly? And the sales data that was just posted in another thread shows the Challenger is creeping up, despite a big weight disadvantage.

Is it really design? I thought the S197's were the most beloved Mustang design since the 65? There has got to be more going on here.

Remember, there was no Camaro or Challenger from 2002 to 2008 MY for the Challenger, and then 2010 for Camaro. Also, a lot of Mustang’s sales slide is due to the fact Mustang fans that bought cars in 2005-2009 didn't think the 10+ was different enough, or didn't like it.

For the Camaro guys, their car has only been around for 3 model years -- they didn't have any other options for 7 model years.

As far a Challenger is concerned, I think people are starting to buy that because S197, and even Camaro’s looks are getting long in the tooth, and you just don't see a lot of Challengers around. It was generally accepted that its lack of success was due to its size, weight, and performance compared to the other 2.

Now, all that considered, we also have to think about what group Mustang WAS geared towards before(S197 and prior), and what group Ford is aiming at now(S550). It is clear that they need to start thinking about a new enthusiast base – that being Europe and the younger generations. Whether we like it or not, this is coming at the expense of the current enthusiast base who generally doesn’t want a modern, more vanilla car that blends in with the rest of the European and Asian offerings.



That’s fine if the move is to secure the future of the nameplate – but it will NOT succeed if they think they can get away without trimming weight, trimming size, and adding world class performance. The enthusiast base they want to capture DOES care about this stuff, and Ford won’t get away with just adding HP and changing the look like they have for so long based on the name alone. Hell, they can even get away with that anymore with the current fans.


Whether we like it or not, Mustang is changing. It is not going to be what it once was. But to clarify, it is not going to be anything if Ford sticks to "Old Detroit" attitudes.

 

[SStormtrooPer]

For the record, I don't think the weight alone is going to be the only cause of problems for the Mustang.

This is just a thread about the weight, and I think if no weight is lost, or weight is gained, we will watch Camaro and the Challenger replacement pull away -- as they should. It is no longer about the name.

For ME it is a deal breaker if no pounds are shed.

 

[Overboost]

While most of us know very little about S550 at this point, we know even less about the new Camaro or the Cuda. Let's not jump too far ahead and make assumptions until things start to come out. Second, let's look at the plethora of rumors surrounding S550. We've had a number of them contradict one another, and some very high-profile sources (MT, R&T, etc.) seem to discredit one another with stories.

Now, looking at the big picture, if the car is safer, more capable, and gains weight, what's the big deal? The car is going to perform. I have no doubt about that. Look at German sport coupes...they're not light by any stretch of the imagination. Look at (dare I say) the Camaro 1LE and Z28...close to 4000 lbs. and able to hold their own. I don't think the weight gain is going to be the end of the world for the car, and I don't think it'll stop people from buying it. To the layman (not us), it probably won't matter. If the car outperforms a '11-14 car handily, people won't notice the weight.

I will say this: if the rumors of P552 shedding major amounts of weight are true, and Ford develops the manufacturing processes to make quality parts in aluminum and other lightweight materials, then down the road (2018 or 2020) we may very well see those implemented into the refresh or redesign and drop some weight. If they make it work making 600,000+ units a year, then a high profile sport coupe might benefit from the technology as well. The same goes if Lincoln gets serious and makes a sport coupe or sedan based on the platform. Those things will benefit Mustang, if they happen.

 

[Thed]

Guys, I just talked with my buds at Ford and they said that the Mustang will not only be quite a bit smaller, but the rumor of the 3200 LB EB and 3450 LB GT are TRUE.

So stop this nonsense.

 

[Mechanic]

Now, looking at the big picture, if the car is safer, more capable, and gains weight, what's the big deal? The car is going to perform.

Why we should care is that a car's weight is responsible for about two-thirds of the energy needed to move it, with the energy required to move a vehicle increasing roughly in proportion with its heft. Heavier cars need bigger/more powerful engines to achieve the same acceleration and those engines use, on average, just 8 percent of their power in highway driving and just 5 percent in the city. In other words, lots of wasted power. Inefficient. Making a car lighter is by far, the easiest way to boost gas mileage. As for safety, weight should not be confused for size. Larger cars are generally safer, but weight has very little to do with it. Weight mostly just affects fuel economy and in this day of high gas prices, that's a no no.

Weight is also the enemy of brakes, tires and just about every aspect of the car. Further, horsepower, displacement and emissions output leads to higher taxes and insurance, particularly in other parts of the world where the Mustang will be selling.

Heavier cars also require more and heavier equipment (more powerful brakes, bigger wheels, stronger frame/suspension etc, all of which cost $) and in simple terms, regardless of power, a heavier car takes away from a visceral driving experience. Making mass move faster takes more time. Stopping more mass requires more distance and time. Redirecting mass takes more effort and time. There are ways to offset the issues (electronics, computers) but at that point you're fixing the symptom, not the problem.

You point out the 1LE. Compare it to the lighter Boss 302. The Camaro may nail the numbers but the Boss by far has the better feel. The 1LE has to rely tremendously on mechanical assistance in order to do its bidding. Nearly all reviews will tell you that despite being slightly slower, the lighter weight Boss 302 makes for a more engaging ride with great cornering and steering feedback. ALL of this is a result of a lighter weight. This is not even mentioning everything that has been said already about competition, CAFE, etc.

 

[Leviathan]

Guys, I just talked with my buds at Ford and they said that the Mustang will not only be quite a bit smaller, but the rumor of the 3200 LB EB and 3450 LB GT are TRUE.

So stop this nonsense.

Go Buds! :cheers:

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