2014 Z28 Assault Thread.

[JohnZiraldo]

...
Does this mean that Chevy is misleading its potential customers? Possibly. Maybe even probably. Does that absolve said customers from doing their own due diligence? At this price point, no....

....
Quote:
Originally Posted by thePill
Chevy is misrepresenting the z28 in road racing, selling the car as a showroom race car right? It isn't legal anywhere for multiple reasons.

Possibly. Chevy has refered to the Z/28 as being track capable several times. Good old marketing, stay vague and let the public read into it however they want to translate it.

Since Ford and GM are largely in the business of selling VIN-equipped vehicles and not race cars, why is it so damned important the Z/28 specifically fits ANY class?

Three down. One to go!

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[JohnZiraldo]

GM, Al O., and the Chevy fans can waffle all they want about the purpose of the 2014 Z/28, but they cannot get past two facts. The history of the Z/28 is one of racing against the Mustang, and Al O claimed the Z/28 would beat the shit out of anything Ford could bring. The 2014 Z/28 cannot race against the Mustang in any of the 20 classes the Mustang races in, let alone beat it there.

GM got it wrong twice before with what became the 1LE and the ZL1. This is strike three. If GM releases this car they should call it the Z/xx or something and send Al O to the bench.

 

[Whiskey11]

Not jolly likely. No sense of sensibility, present. No response, either.

[crickets]

Since Ford and GM are largely in the business of selling VIN-equipped vehicles and not race cars, why is it so damned important the Z/28 specifically fits ANY class? This point of contention seems to be a dull roar conceived by one biased and, therefore, misguided soul, and a few others have followed along like sheeple. Why?

These cars (BOSS LS and Z/28) are built in tiny numbers, relatively. Sold to those who seriously want them. For WHATEVER purpose they deem fit to use them for. Garage art. Track car. Sculpture in front of the race track condo garage. WHATEVER.

To go and bang fenders with others? Buy a clapped out rental, B-I-W, or used one and do the mods you want. And then build to whatever class your little heart desires. Or buy a BOSS 302s or R, if you're so inclined. Does GM have a comparable car to those? No, but they can put you in touch with a builder or three who can build whatever you, and your wallet, want. End prices similar to FRPP.

[still crickets]

Nail -> Hammer -> Head.

No matter WHAT GM and it's engineers say, it has a VIN plate and it's a STREET car, just like the Boss 302 and Boss 302 Laguna Seca are STREET cars. There isn't a whole lot on a street going Boss 302 that finds its way onto the Boss 302S and Boss 302R Race cars so I'm not sure what the griping about "But it wont compete against the Boss 302 in any racing classes!!!1!111one!111Eleventy!11!!!!111!1one". It wasn't designed to be a competition car, it was designed to be the end all be all of track capable street legal Camaros.

This car will still be too soft spring rate wise for any serious racing and as far as I can tell it has no competitor in the Mustang world despite it's name-sake heritage with the closest being the $20,000 less Boss 302 Laguna Seca and it's only on that list because both are track focused street machines.

I'd also like to point out that the Boss 302 and 302 LS are not "race homologated" cars that can just slot into any specific series because it was "designed to". NASA's ST class is an amateur race series, much like the SCCA club racing classes are and they are designed to paint a pretty wide brush to allow for a number of competitive cars with modifications. You could take a base GT into any of those classes with the correct modifications. I'm also pretty sure that NASA and the SCCA both require cages in all of the club racing cars, something missing from the street cars that are supposedly Race homologated.

The Boss 302S and Boss 302R however ARE designed to slot into specific semi-professional and professional race series (American Iron, Pirelli World Challenge, Trans Am, Continental Tire Sports Car Challenge, etc) which is where I think the confusion comes from. Again these cars are significantly different from their street going counterparts that it's hard to compare them to each other at all. Sure it's the same basic 3 link live axle + PHB out back and struts up front but the rear suspension has proper coilover shocks made by Sachs whereas the street cars have divorced springs and shocks, you have built in diff coolers, stiffer bushings (used to be rod ends), and much different front control arms, front coilovers, camber plates, the full cage, etc than the standard street going cars.

 

[PowerUp]

GM, Al O., and the Chevy fans can waffle all they want about the purpose of the 2014 Z/28, but they cannot get past two facts. The history of the Z/28 is one of racing against the Mustang

And Pontiac, and Chrysler. And in the halcyon days of Trans Am, '67-'70, GM and Ford fought to a draw: 2 Championships apiece.

Al O claimed the Z/28 would beat the shit out of anything Ford could bring.

What does Ford have, right now, that will outrun on a road course the Z/28? What does any other Manufacturer have, for the same money with a VIN, that will? The GT 500?!

GM got it wrong twice before with what became the 1LE and the ZL1. This is strike three. If GM releases this car they should call it the Z/xx or something and send Al O to the bench.

1LE @ $37-and-change trumped the BOSS LS @ $50K in the Lightning Lap.

"The tracks weren't the same!", scream the Ford faithful. Funny, when that's mentioned as a causal factor for the Z/28's "only" 7:37 'Ring time, "No big deal!", scream the Ford faithful. Can't have it both ways. Even @ 7:37 ("official"), the Z/28 acquaints itself very well against some pretty heady-expensive company.

It wasn't GM's fault that Ford never made an LS available for a head-to-head against the 1LE. That one's on Ford.

As for the ZL1, if you're talking 1/4-mile (which we aren't), under-6.0 lb/hp will virtually ALWAYS beat over-7.0. But you have to add $6,000 worth of options to the GT 500 to get approximately even (depending on track) with road course action available on ALL models of ZL1. Even after spotting the Mustang 300 lb.

True fans of things-automotive do NOT castigate the ZL1 for ANYTHING of a mechanical nature, other than those extra trips to the buffet table. And the Atkins Diet is underway.

Still [crickets] from Oppie.

 

[BaylorCorvette]

Nail -> Hammer -> Head.

No matter WHAT GM and it's engineers say, it has a VIN plate and it's a STREET car, just like the Boss 302 and Boss 302 Laguna Seca are STREET cars. There isn't a whole lot on a street going Boss 302 that finds its way onto the Boss 302S and Boss 302R Race cars so I'm not sure what the griping about "But it wont compete against the Boss 302 in any racing classes!!!1!111one!111Eleventy!11!!!!111!1one". It wasn't designed to be a competition car, it was designed to be the end all be all of track capable street legal Camaros.

This car will still be too soft spring rate wise for any serious racing and as far as I can tell it has no competitor in the Mustang world despite it's name-sake heritage with the closest being the $20,000 less Boss 302 Laguna Seca and it's only on that list because both are track focused street machines.

I'd also like to point out that the Boss 302 and 302 LS are not "race homologated" cars that can just slot into any specific series because it was "designed to". NASA's ST class is an amateur race series, much like the SCCA club racing classes are and they are designed to paint a pretty wide brush to allow for a number of competitive cars with modifications. You could take a base GT into any of those classes with the correct modifications. I'm also pretty sure that NASA and the SCCA both require cages in all of the club racing cars, something missing from the street cars that are supposedly Race homologated.

The Boss 302S and Boss 302R however ARE designed to slot into specific semi-professional and professional race series (American Iron, Pirelli World Challenge, Trans Am, Continental Tire Sports Car Challenge, etc) which is where I think the confusion comes from. Again these cars are significantly different from their street going counterparts that it's hard to compare them to each other at all. Sure it's the same basic 3 link live axle + PHB out back and struts up front but the rear suspension has proper coilover shocks made by Sachs whereas the street cars have divorced springs and shocks, you have built in diff coolers, stiffer bushings (used to be rod ends), and much different front control arms, front coilovers, camber plates, the full cage, etc than the standard street going cars.

Thank you for your rational post.

What does Ford have, right now, that will outrun on a road course the Z/28? What does any other Manufacturer have, for the same money with a VIN, that will? The GT 500?!

You know what response you're going to get right? "Doesn't matter it can't run on a road course!!" Which is laughable because it can physically run on a road course, automotive journalists are still going to get their hands on it and do a review. Randy will still likely lap it around the track. But of course it wont matter what it does, people will claim it is null and void because "It can't run legally in X sanctioned event in Y class!!!!!!"

1LE @ $37-and-change trumped the BOSS LS @ $50K in the Lightning Lap.

Lets not forget that the 1LE beat a Mustang GT w/ track pack by three seconds around Streets of Willow. Sure it isn't the Boss, but you can get a 1LE for a very similar price as the Mustang GT w/ track pack.

It wasn't GM's fault that Ford never made an LS available for a head-to-head against the 1LE. That one's on Ford.

MotorTrend asked Ford three times to get a Boss for their comparison against the 1LE at Streets of Willow. All three times Ford denied MotorTrend the opportunity. Hmmm...

As for the ZL1, if you're talking 1/4-mile (which we aren't), under-6.0 lb/hp will virtually ALWAYS beat over-7.0. But you have to add $6,000 worth of options to the GT 500 to get approximately even (depending on track) with road course action available on ALL models of ZL1. Even after spotting the Mustang 300 lb.

Agreed, I actually brought this up several posts ago.

 

[JohnZiraldo]

... Randy will still likely lap it around the track. But of course it wont matter what it does, people will claim it is null and void because "It can't run legally in X sanctioned event in Y class!!!!!!"
...

Very good! Now I think you've got it.

 

[Whiskey11]

Thank you for your rational post.



You know what response you're going to get right? "Doesn't matter it can't run on a road course!!" Which is laughable because it can physically run on a road course, automotive journalists are still going to get their hands on it and do a review. Randy will still likely lap it around the track. But of course it wont matter what it does, people will claim it is null and void because "It can't run legally in X sanctioned event in Y class!!!!!!"



Lets not forget that the 1LE beat a Mustang GT w/ track pack by three seconds around Streets of Willow. Sure it isn't the Boss, but you can get a 1LE for a very similar price as the Mustang GT w/ track pack.



MotorTrend asked Ford three times to get a Boss for their comparison against the 1LE at Streets of Willow. All three times Ford denied MotorTrend the opportunity. Hmmm...



Agreed, I actually brought this up several posts ago.

One thing I would point out that I do think is relevant is that Chevy has two distinct advantages over Ford. The most important one in my eyes is the luxury of seeing the competition FIRST and building a car to best it. It has pretty much been that ways since the 60's. They have been kinda playing catch up and the reality is that their benchmarks have always been out before their competitor with the Mustang has hit the market. That simplifies things as it makes for a more stationary targer. Of course Al O made this horribly apparent in the ZL1 vs GT500 debate when Ford sucker punched Chevy with the updates.

The other thing is that while the Corvette has always been a ceiling for the Camaro, the entire Camaro lineup has benefitted heavily from the Corvette program. To add, Caddy's programs to the list too since the revitalization of the entire Caddy lineup. That is an advantage that Ford does not have as Lincoln does not have a huge amount of tech to trickle down to the Mustang and the Mustang is the only front engine RWD sports car platform Ford has in the US currently.

I think it is good on Chevy to pool it's assets like that but unless the Ford GT comes back as the top model sports car for us, we are the beta platform for sports car tech in the Ford lineup.

I also think it is great that we have options in this day and age and they are reasonably diverse with good character. We dont need more beige cars...

 

[PowerUp]

One thing I would point out that I do think is relevant is that Chevy has two distinct advantages over Ford. The most important one in my eyes is the luxury of seeing the competition FIRST and building a car to best it. It has pretty much been that ways since the 60's. They have been kinda playing catch up and the reality is that their benchmarks have always been out before their competitor with the Mustang has hit the market. That simplifies things as it makes for a more stationary target.

Yes, and no. The Big Block-capable '67 Mustang and Cougar were in anticipation of Chev's entry, and Pontiac's as well. And still they saddled them with 390s. Weak sauce, only rectified by Tasca's use of existing parts, and Hot Rod Magazine showing Ford, conclusively, what customers REALLY wanted. Documented. Tasca also "blueprinted" the Thunderbolt for Ford, in '63. Documented.

Still, in today's environment (no pun), it takes close to 3 years to fast-track a complete engineering program. The Z/28 was green-lighted in summer '11. Gonna take till early '14 to see SOP. And, as the ZL1 discovered, "things change". Sometimes quickly (pun intended).

Of course Al O made this horribly apparent in the ZL1 vs GT500 debate when Ford sucker punched Chevy with the updates.

The other thing is that while the Corvette has always been a ceiling for the Camaro, the entire Camaro lineup has benefitted heavily from the Corvette program. To add, Caddy's programs to the list too since the revitalization of the entire Caddy lineup. That is an advantage that Ford does not have as Lincoln does not have a huge amount of tech to trickle down to the Mustang and the Mustang is the only front engine RWD sports car platform Ford has in the US currently.

Agreed.

I think it is good on Chevy to pool it's assets like that but unless the Ford GT comes back as the top model sports car for us, we are the beta platform for sports car tech in the Ford lineup.

Agreed.

I also think it is great that we have options in this day and age and they are reasonably diverse with good character. We dont need more beige cars...

Absolutely! See? Rational thoughts can be found in this thread.

 

[PowerUp]

In the interests of fairness, something generally missing so far in this thread, there was that time in the fall of '81 when Mustang introduced the 5.0. In a lighter chassis than GM had (sound familiar?). Boy, did that 5.0's numbers get the attention of enthusiasts. And GM. Something called a 305 H.O. was hustled to market. Not overnight. But by early model year '83, the L69 arrived. And not a moment too soon. Not enough? Throw the Tuned Port 350 at it! Now we're pretty even: a light 5.0 vs. a heavier 350.

Still, the Fox-chassis'd Mustang prospered. Cheap thrills ensued. 1,000s swooned. And signed deals for Mustangs. Bang for the buck? Sure.

And things stayed about the same until the '90s and the Gen-4s arrived. 350-only for GM. ABS standard. High-techer. But heavier than the S-197. Tried-and-proven 302s in the Mustang. Lighter. But then GM messed things up with their LS1. Damn them. What to do?

Enter the Cobra! Shelby's BACK! Well, his progeny's name, anyway. BIG Bucks, but humbling to the GM folks (sound familiar?). A few 100 built. ICONIC! If it only delivered all the horsies Ford said it did. Nice of Shelby to return, after all those years floggin' FWD Dodges and such. Oh yeah, and the cool convertible truck that sold so well and amazed soooo many people. Had a hand in the Viper, too. What a guy! But, after all, he IS the guy that the Deuce relied on to win Le Mans, and give the Mustang some street cred. Something lacking in the mid-'60s, generally. And something all that dough spent on Total Performance had failed to deliver at the local drive-ins. But I digress.

2002. Sad times in Mudville. Or was that Montreal? Good bye GM! Oh, and BTW, here's a little something to look at, to see what y'all are missing out on: SVT Cobra!!! IRS!!! And guess what we'll call the engine, GM? The TERMINATOR!! Price? If you have to ask, you can't af-Ford it.

GM's reply? I'll be back. Terminator indeed.

As Paul Harvey (NOT the Indy Ford performance dealer; the broadcaster) would say, "And now you know (some of) the REST of the story".

Where's Oppie?

 

[Whiskey11]

Absolutely! See? Rational thoughts can be found in this thread.

I am a car enthusiast who owns a Mustang, not a Mustang owner who is a car enthusiast. My family is a Ford family but if Chevy put a Camaro out in my price range that peaked my interest I would give it a fair shot. Unfortunately the 5th Gen has a ton of cons in my chosen racing "platform“ in which weight and low outward visibility makes for a difficult drive. I love the performance of 4th gen Camaros and the only con I really have is again, the outward visibility. That said my friends all drive non domestic cars and it has taken some time but I do enjoy and like their cars, except the BMWs... ;)

As an aside, I really hope that Ford and Chevy keep the rawness in their Pony cars. I dont want some uber refined car. BMW's 3 series starting with the E36 opitimize my disdain for refinement. There is no challenge in driving them fast, they do things so well that they cover a lot of driving mistakes. My Mustang is a reasonably easy car to drive fast but it is not forgiving of mistakes and that wild ride makes it an absolute hoot to autocross. I have.no doubt next gen cars will be faster, I just want there to be a challenge in the driving experience.

As for the Z/28 I hope it works well for Chevy's sake but for the price they are asking it had better dominate Mustangs! ;)

 

[PowerUp]

Here's the deal, Whiskey11: this recipe of a super-double-throwdown-trick piece is NOT a new recipe!! It's as old as '65 GT350s! And has been repeated, variously, by both Ford and GM before! Sadly, rarely at the same time (now I'm not a Grassy Knoll conspiracy theorist, but...).

Each should know their customers by now. And, believe it or not, there are some significant differences in some critical areas. And THAT is why some things play out the way they do.

Will the '14 Z/28 dominate on a road course what Ford CURRENTLY has available? Yes. But GM's been tricked before, haven't they? And so has Ford.

 

[91z28350]

Personally, I think the competition is good for the class in general. I have no doubt that the GT350/SVT variant we have seen (at least we think we have), and the rumor of it being available first year of the S550 are a direct result of the Z/28. Being more of a drag race guy, the point is moot to me, as long as the domestic's keep winning!

 

[T-5 killer]

And things stayed about the same until the '90s and the Gen-4s arrived. 350-only for GM. ABS standard. High-techer. But heavier than the S-197. Tried-and-proven 302s in the Mustang. Lighter. But then GM messed things up with their LS1. Damn them. What to do?

2002. Sad times in Mudville. Or was that Montreal? Good bye GM! Oh, and BTW, here's a little something to look at, to see what y'all are missing out on: SVT Cobra!!! IRS!!! And guess what we'll call the engine, GM? The TERMINATOR!! Price? If you have to ask, you can't af-Ford it.

The 302 only lasted in the Mustang till '95 and the '96+ Cobra with the 4.6 DOHC Matched the LT1s HP.....

The 03-04 Cobras were pretty damn close in price to the SS Camaros and way less than the WS6 T/A.

 

[BaylorCorvette]

long as the domestic's keep winning!

That's the important part.

 

[PowerUp]

The 302 only lasted in the Mustang till '95 and the '96+ Cobra with the 4.6 DOHC Matched the LT1s HP.....

Dually noted and acknowledged. At intro, 302's were present. My brother bought one. Then Crown Vic engines took over.

The 03-04 Cobras were pretty damn close in price to the SS Camaros and way less than the WS6 T/A.

WS6 Formulas were 'way south of Cobras. Other than the rare Cobra R, the 03s-04s were the most expensive volume Mustangs to that moment. Dealer mark-ups ensued. Not many (if any) sold @ $37,000. Most climbed into the $40s+ in a hurry, which was a LOT of dough for the typical Mustang buyer. Still is, 10 Years After (cue the music).

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