2014 Z28 Assault Thread.

[thePill]

So let's see if I have this straight . . . it's OK for an individual or small business to do chassis development work for a street rod, which won't fit into any sanctioned racing class whatsoever, but it's a fail worthy of utter contempt for Chevrolet to do virtually the same thing?

In either case, the owner is going to buy what he wants to buy and drive it as hard as he dares in whatever activity he chooses (and which lets him run). Run what ya brung, from two (vastly) different manufacturing levels.


I won't comment on the usability of many street rods - I think they're neat and I'm tempted to build one that has cornering as its principal attribute.

But don't you think that being so stridently against the Z/28 has worn out its welcome even on a Mustang forum?


Norm

Street Rod and Motorsport Chassis are two different specialties. They are in the same building...

Although, some Rods here are destined for a spec'd cage (drag race). We have two SCCA regional cars here now. A 2nd Gen and a '67 Firebird.


The Street Rod shop has the spray booths. The Collision/Refinishing shop is too busy for custom work or chassis fab.

Also a Collision/Refinishing Tech with Applied Service Management for the Automotive Industry, Advance Street Rod Fabrication, Paint Chemistry, Motorsport Chassis Engineering, Custom Trim and Upholstery, iCar MIG/TIG/Gas Steel/Aluminum and SATA Certified...


I know cars Norm, just couldn't keep mine on the track lol!!!

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[BaylorCorvette]

Sorry man, this z28 missed the mark as far as a hard core, track ready option. Only in Chevy land can you claim road course dominance without every winning (or even try to compete) with Ford.

I get what you're saying, and agree to an extent.

If they built the car to win at magazines, that's a huge failure. .

This is where I disagree. Let me preface this by saying I do not think a car should be built to win magazines, however lets pretend that is EXACTLY what Chevy did with the Z/28. How can you say that is a failure? There are so many people that read all sorts of different automotive magazines and journalist reviews. If the car blows away these journalists and they give raving reviews of the new Z/28, lots and lots of people are going to praise it. They will buy into the hype and think it is an awesome car. This is why I said several posts ago, that it is up to the journalists to comment on how you cannot run the Z/28 in (fill in a sanctioned event name here). There are A LOT more people in this world that read/watch magazine/journalists reviews of vehicles than there are people that watch closely SCCA, NASA (other sanctioned events) and how specific cars are doing there.

In summary, if the Z/28 was built to blow away auto journalists and it does do that (which I'm inclinded to believe) then people are going to think it's an amazing vehicle. Just a flock of sheep following along.

In either case, the owner is going to buy what he wants to buy and drive it as hard as he dares in whatever activity he chooses (and which lets him run). Run what ya brung, from two (vastly) different manufacturing levels.

Exactly.

 

[thePill]

I don't want people to be sheep, They should have the info and make decisions based on the info provided. It was disheartening to see people make plans before the car was released, not knowing what they planned can't be done. For the most part, a majority of the time, it was heavily disputed even after I brought it up. Eventually, people wised up and found the rulebooks.

Those people have all but disappeared from the z28 threads. Now, all that really remains are those that for some reason, want a personal victory over thePill's topic. I can't find a class the z28 will fit in... The z28 will probably hand the M3 it's ass too, but I wouldn't say its a better track car.


I am convinced that the z28 was a response to a Mustang that never went to production. I feel after the initial response for the GT500 didn't require another model option. I would have loved to see a GT500R (or KR) but, I don't think it was needed the way the ZL1 handled the comparison. Once the knowledge migrated over to the z28 thread, you stopped hearing the hardcore guys talking. They looked elsewhere...


Can you even say the z28 is the "Ultimate Track" Camaro?

 

[BaylorCorvette]

I don't want people to be sheep, They should have the info and make decisions based on the info provided. It was disheartening to see people make plans before the car was released, not knowing what they planned can't be done. For the most part, a majority of the time, it was heavily disputed even after I brought it up. Eventually, people wised up and found the rulebooks.

I don't either. The fact of the matter is that the majority of the buying market doesn't follow "real" races or even read that much on forums, sadly.

Can you even say the z28 is the "Ultimate Track" Camaro?

I guess that depends on what your definition of the "Ultimate Track" Camaro is. For some, it is the absolute best (by time, since that's how everyone compares different vehicles) Camaro around a given track. Laguna Seca, Streets of Willow, VIR, the 'Ring, etc. By that definition I'd say yes it is a pretty good track car, because it will no doubt put down a good time there. However, by others (yourself included) would define it as the an absolute beast at competing in sanctioned events against its competition.

People define and perceive things differently..


:shrug:

 

[JohnZiraldo]

...
There are so many people that read all sorts of different automotive magazines and journalist reviews. If the car blows away these journalists and they give raving reviews of the new Z/28, lots and lots of people are going to praise it. They will buy into the hype and think it is an awesome car...
In summary, if the Z/28 was built to blow away auto journalists and it does do that (which I'm inclinded to believe) then people are going to think it's an amazing vehicle. Just a flock of sheep following along.

This sounds like approval for the low-information voters who go along with whatever bullshit the main stream media tells them to believe. Don't we have enough of that crap outside of motorsports?

 

[BaylorCorvette]

This sounds like approval for the low-information voters who go along with whatever bullshit the main stream media tells them to believe. Don't we have enough of that crap outside of motorsports?

Kinda like politics isn't it? Most of the voters out there are idiots that listen to mainstream media and don't really know which way is up. Same thing is happening here..

This isn't a stamp of approval, rather the sad reality that we are living in.

 

[JohnZiraldo]

This isn't a stamp of approval, rather the sad reality that we are living in.

That doesn't mean we have to buy into or accept it in the hobby that we enjoy so much. Let's raise shit whenever we see it, and support those that raise their voices against it.

 

[thePill]

That doesn't mean we have to buy into or accept it in the hobby that we enjoy so much. Let's raise shit whenever we see it, and support those that raise their voices against it.

I agree John, false advertising is unacceptable... even by law John, even by law... You know what else auto hobbyist hate John? Sandbagging...

Now that were done trying to convince people the z28 will be eligible (and successful) in Super Touring and the NASA's Super Unlimited (equivalent to Daytona Prototype), I wanna talk more about Sandbagging...

In my opinion John, it's pretty low class... I also have an opinion about their level of intelligence if they would just let people see those media runs... Kind of a bummer... I wouldn't care if they sandbagged the ZL1 (which I believe happened as well) but another companies product is treadin' pretty close to desperate. A caged z28 vs. old production cars (one no longer made) then show video's of a 8/10's media tour of the z28 beating Chevy's best of 1:59 in the GT500.

Come on man!!!

 

[JohnZiraldo]

I agree John, false advertising is unacceptable... even by law John, even by law... You know what else auto hobbyist hate John? Sandbagging...
Now that were done trying to convince people the z28 will be eligible (and successful) in Super Touring and the NASA's Super Unlimited (equivalent to Daytona Prototype), I wanna talk more about Sandbagging...

I am afraid BaylorCamaro may be right about what is going on with GM and their approach to Z/28 customers is "Kinda like politics". Let's hope the execs at GM are not studying Saul Alynsky's 'Rules for Radicals' as a result of their new relationship with Washington.

I wouldn't mind if GM and the Media were to keep going down this path, as long as Ford doesn't follow and as long as there are strong voices pointing out and creating a record of any and all lack of honesty.

I am sure that one day the worm will turn in Washington and the people will wake up from their mental slumber and demand a more honest world. When they do, GM could find itself in a not so favorable light.

 

[Norm Peterson]

That doesn't mean we have to buy into or accept it in the hobby that we enjoy so much. Let's raise shit whenever we see it, and support those that raise their voices against it.

As long as when you object you realize that how you state your objections will matter as much as the objections themselves.

IOW, if you come off sounding too intense and reaching too far yourself, you'll tend to look like lunatic-fringe opposition and lose support for the end result you're seeking rather than gain it.

I don't disagree with everything that Pill has stated, or even the basic premise about Z/28 class-legality. Certainly I don't appreciate the sandbagging, which reflects badly on the rest of the Camaro engineering team. But I absolutely do disapprove of the shrill overall tone with which Pill's objections have been presented, and I fear that that aspect has already been counterproductive.


Norm

 

[thePill]

I am a disagreeable person, 10 years of overseas service and you tend to develop a one sided personality. Honestly, I tried the civil approach, over and over again... I can assure you Norm, I do not change my tone when I log out. Look at the Urban dictionary and see what "a Pill" means... I think the name is right on the $$$...

I figured the sandbagging comment would attract flies. They sent over some damage control to try and discredit me Norm... Not to dispute anything meaningful. There is absolutely no room in my heart for assassins Norm, we put those to the sword.


If nothing I said made sense, then by all means fire away. However, some Camaro fans would rather discredit the entire world as long as the 5th Gen is good at something. There is actually many a good reason for a thread like this... Information being priority.

 

[BaylorCorvette]

They sent over some damage control to try and discredit me Norm... Not to dispute anything meaningful. There is absolutely no room in my heart for assassins Norm, we put those to the sword.

Damage Control? Assassins? What?

 

[thePill]

Damage Control? Assassins? What?

I didn't mean you Baylor, contrary to popular belief, there always needs to be a voice from each side.

Edit: The sandbagging is a let down. I understand the desire to beat Ford and the effort is admirable. They don't need to stoop that low. The '13 GT500 was a pretty decent slap in the face. I'll be the first to admit the call made that buried the ZL1 from the media was viscous. If there was an existing Gentleman's agreement between the two, it was broken in November 2011. That was Ford's doing...


Benchmarking is common sense. I don't mind if they do it... It's expected. I don't know if the way Ford handled the GT500 release gives Chevy a green light for those measures. It bothers me though. I am aware GM has done it before with Caddy and BMW. It was funny to me then, but then again, I'm not as close to BMW.

This presents a challenge for Ford... Do they actually have to build a far better vehicle now because the competitor hasn't really made the huge strides it says it has? Will it force them to do the same? That's not the company I am headed for, nor do I personally want to work in a place with leadership like that. Team Corvette has never been accused of or caught doing this. Maybe because they never need to... They are what they say they are.

I don't want Ford doing this, I don't care if they can't beat the numbers. Just don't rig the match. I just don't like that at all.


Anyway, if "Track Capable" is what it's called then kool. What most haven't considered is that a ZL1 would be capable of much more with R tires in place of its Goodyears. If the z28 isn't really made for racing, who cares if it can do it more efficiently... The ZL1 needs speed in the corners, the R compound will see to that. The z28 cannot make up the speed of the ZL1. Why sandbag your own model?

 

[Norm Peterson]

Pill - I think I've made it pretty clear where we differ over interpretations of the available data and even on the likely intent and anticipated usage of the car itself. And lately on where I differ over how it is being presented.

That's all me. There isn't anybody or any site whispering in my ear in the background. Even though (as I'm sure you're aware) I'm fairly active over on Camaro5.


BTW, urban dictionary didn't help any. The way my mother used it when I was 50 or 60 years younger has been making more sense.


Norm

 

[BaylorCorvette]

. What most haven't considered is that a ZL1 would be capable of much more with R tires in place of its Goodyears. If the z28 isn't really made for racing, who cares if it can do it more efficiently... The ZL1 needs speed in the corners, the R compound will see to that. The z28 cannot make up the speed of the ZL1

Agreed. A few people have brought this up and I'm sure the gap would close or the ZL1 would surpass the Z/28. Which further supports my opinion that all this Z/28 is, is a car with a lot of over the top performance parts and looks AMAZING on paper. The Z/28 is like a trophy wife, really good to look at and show off to others but dear God it's expensive to maintain.

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