GT350 Dealers List.

[Five Oh Brian]

I find it hard to believe you just made this statement in public. Are you the GM of this dealership? :tsk: What kind of Mindset is that to have? Just because people don't think ADM's should be allowed, you think they are all bum's because they wont pay extra?

No, I'm not the GM at our dealership. However, I've been an active member of quite a few Mustang forums for the past 15 years. I can tell you from experience as a Mustang enthusiast reading those forums that every time a special new Mustang comes out it's the same old ADM argument. And, time after time it's people posting how "if only there wasn't an ADM I could afford one." Well, in my opinion, if an ADM puts a car out of reach then that person probably couldn't afford the car anyway.

Trust me, there are plenty of people who want a car like the GT350 who do not have the ability to buy one, and many of them salivate and post up about those cars all over the internet on every forum they can find. The vast majority of people who can really afford high end cars don't have the time or interest in scouring the forums to hunt for a deal; they just go buy the damn car for whatever deal they work out with the dealer. Keep in mind that there are only a couple dozen people on this website reading this post, and just a couple hundred people actively in the GT350 posts here, putting them in the vast minority of shoppers for this car.

More importantly, if you don't like an ADM posted at a dealership on a car you absolutely want to buy, then why not simply strike up a deal in person with that dealership and negotiate down to a price you're willing to pay. You'd be surprised how many dealerships will negotiate down off an ADM and below MSRP if you show genuine interest and an ability to buy.

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[Cruzinaround]

I love the ADM argument, as it is never rational - only emotional. And the biggest opposition to an ADM is typically somebody that can't even afford the car in question even if it were sold for MSRP.

I take it you're speaking as a dealer or that you work for one.

So I'll put it this way....Its only emotional when it becomes the argument. Because the only thing rational is to offer a willing customer a fair price.

As a dealer you represent the Manufacturer simply because that's the product you're selling. And the Manufacturer will set that MSRP based on the cost to produce the vehicle and still remain profitable. As the dealer you don't even pay MSRP. You pay far below and have room to wiggle between your factory to dealer invoice and the MSRP. Its designed to make you money. Yet for some reason which the public can only call simple greed... the dealer slaps their fabricated markups on the vehicle. Often claiming it covers advertising costs and shipping. When the vehicle was just delivered... how can there be any over the top costs associated.

Please keep in mind that us dealers have to sell cars below MSRP all the time. We often have to sell cars below the factory invoice total, as well. So, why should it be a one way street? Customers expect us dealers to discount thousands off MSRP to buy a car that's not popular, so shouldn't a highly sought after car be worth more? After all, MSRP is only a "suggestion" and customers never complain when they can get a car well under MSRP.

Some people want it to be law or manufacturer policy that no car can be sold over MSRP and I totally agree with that if - and only if - that same law/policy also says cars can't be sold for less than MSRP, as well.

Car dealers formed associations.... National Automobile Dealers Association or NADA (which ironically translates into nothing in spanish) Laws were enacted, and it's those laws -- meant to protect car dealers from the Manufacturers forcing inventory down their throats to build a shelter against poor economic times-- its this association and laws that are interfering with what should be rational even in a free economy like ours. It puts leverage in the hands of the dealerships to charge whatever they want. And that's where the unethical comes into play. For a dealer to argue for ADM's using their surplus inventory that's not selling as the excuse is simply total BS. The Factory incentives carry through on the sale of these cars which again buffers against selling even below the dealer invoice. Its designed to make the dealer money even when there are what appear to be extreme discounts that kill the margin.

That's not even factoring in the percentage of vehicles that go the route of rental fleets for that dealership and even the leasing route. These vehicles are a steady revenue that again eats up the potential losses and then provides a pre-owned vehicle sale in the end that also bridges that gap.

Oh, and before you all show up at my dealership with torches and pitchforks, I should point out that we typically sell our specialty vehicles for less than MSRP (full MSRP is rare), so we're one of the nice dealers out there. For example, nearly all of our 2014 SVT products (Raptors and GT500's) were sold for thousands below MSRP. Only the first couple of them early in the year came close to MSRP. Our Boss 302's (we sold 6 of them) were MSRP or less, as well. GT350 pricing? Who knows! Ford hasn't announced pricing yet, so neither have we.

Let's be clear on this. You've already eluded to the fact that even when that price is announced you would still be inclined to charge an ADM. So what we do know according to FoMoCo is this car is supposed to be surprisingly affordable. If you were to sell it anywhere above the suggested MSRP then you would in fact be misrepresenting the Manufacturer. That said let's see what the average ADM's wind up being... because in today's social awareness it only adds fuel to the fire to eliminate the dealership models you're defending.

Oh, and for those who think it's criminal or immoral for a car dealer to ask for an ADM, keep in mind that an asking price is not the final transaction price. So, you may very well find that if you showed genuine interest in (and ability to buy) a GT350 to a dealer who is asking an ADM, you may actually be able to negotiate with them to a lower price that makes you happy.

Tesla's direct buy model has got the NADA and all the dealerships that prey on their clientele using ADM's scared. Because if more states allow it...then NADA is defeated and all those ADM's go out the window with them. And in all reality ...they'd deserve it. The fail safes that were put in place to protect them have evolved into ways for them to maintain borderline ethical selling practices. What you have a right to do as a retailer is sell the product you represent at or below what its nationally announced as by the manufacturer, anything else should be considered illegal on a level with scalping sales

And in today's world of transparency due to the internet and news media sensationalism... Manufacturers would have a tough time pulling what they did back in the mid 1900's. They would produce what the population could absorb and keep selling cars at MSRP or below.

It would be more like shopping at an Apple Store dealing with a salesperson who represents the product and actually knows what they are talking about. Then Having the option to go home or on your phone in the store and simply order the car you want the way you want it and actually get an ETA on delivery with all the fees and costs itemized there for you. Not BS, completely transparent and everyone is happy.


I've made some pretty good predictions based on trending social habits....Dealerships will be radically changing in the near future and all this ADM BS will eventually be a thing of the past. In all likely hood the car dealer in the future will wind up being nothing more than the door attendant that checks your reciepts as you leave the showroom.

And that's where the world is heading.

 

[FPC GT350]

I don't think you get the main argument here. @FiveOhBrian

 

[Trackaholic]

I

"Value above MSRP"? Are you talking personal value because FoMoCo sets the actual retail value.

I think your statement above is the misconception. Ford does not set the actual value. Ford sets the Recommended price. The actual value varies for each customer and is set during the purchase. That is what the buyer pays. After all, if the buyer wasn't getting the value, he'd simpy walk away from the deal.

Look at the 2014 Mustang at the end of its life. Big incentives required to sell the car because the value had dropped as the details of the 2015 emerged.

So, the actual value is set by the customers, typically some amount below MSRP. In the case of the GT350, Ford has been a bit cagey about availability, which has lead to high initial demand (or at least the expectation of high initial demand). Therefore dealers feel that in order to reduce the initial demand to those who see the most value in the car, they will charge ADM initially.

If Ford had said right off the bat that they will build as many GT350s as people order, then there'd be no leverage for dealers to charge ADM. But instead Ford said thing like "we will build one less than there is demand for" and that the numbers will be similar to the GT500. It is totally fair to blame dealers for charging ADM, but Ford could have mitigated the situation as well. Even if they did emphasize that anyone who wants one could get one (which I do think they stated) there's still the issue of how quickly they can fulfill the demand, so there will be chances for ADM initially in order to balance that.

Anyway, yes, ADM is annoying, and I'd try like hell to find a dealer who doesnt charge it, and it does affect my perception of dealers that do, but I understand why and try not to get too worked up about it. But still won't buy anything from the Nissan dealer that tried to charge me ADM back in 2002. So feel free to consider me a hypocrite! ;-)

-T

 

[Cruzinaround]

I wouldn't put it past FoMoCo's innovations division to already have a game plan to remove the existing dealership model in favor of a direct buy model.

Salesmen should be relegated to order takers and perhaps have an opportunity to sell spiff's based on whatever dealer added incentives they can offer the buyer over the Factory price.

For example...a dealer backed warranty that augments the existing factory warranty. Or free service for the life of ownership, etc etc. There are ways to make an ADM something worthwhile. With minimal cost on the part of the dealer.

 

[FPCV8YO]

I

I think your statement above is the misconception. Ford does not set the actual value. Ford sets the Recommended price. The actual value varies for each customer and is set during the purchase. That is what the buyer pays. After all, if the buyer wasn't getting the value, he'd simpy walk away from the deal.

Look at the 2014 Mustang at the end of its life. Big incentives required to sell the car because the value had dropped as the details of the 2015 emerged.

So, the actual value is set by the customers, typically some amount below MSRP. In the case of the GT350, Ford has been a bit cagey about availability, which has lead to high initial demand (or at least the expectation of high initial demand). Therefore dealers feel that in order to reduce the initial demand to those who see the most value in the car, they will charge ADM initially.

If Ford had said right off the bat that they will build as many GT350s as people order, then there'd be no leverage for dealers to charge ADM. But instead Ford said thing like "we will build one less than there is demand for" and that the numbers will be similar to the GT500. It is totally fair to blame dealers for charging ADM, but Ford could have mitigated the situation as well. Even if they did emphasize that anyone who wants one could get one (which I do think they stated) there's still the issue of how quickly they can fulfill the demand, so there will be chances for ADM initially in order to balance that.

Anyway, yes, ADM is annoying, and I'd try like hell to find a dealer who doesnt charge it, and it does affect my perception of dealers that do, but I understand why and try not to get too worked up about it. But still won't buy anything from the Nissan dealer that tried to charge me ADM back in 2002. So feel free to consider me a hypocrite! ;-)

-T

MSRP does not equal selling price. I don't buy the argument that if we sell for below MSRP that we therefore should be able to sell above it.

 

[Cruzinaround]

I

I think your statement above is the misconception. Ford does not set the actual value. Ford sets the Recommended price. The actual value varies for each customer and is set during the purchase. That is what the buyer pays. After all, if the buyer wasn't getting the value, he'd simpy walk away from the deal.

Look at the 2014 Mustang at the end of its life. Big incentives required to sell the car because the value had dropped as the details of the 2015 emerged.

So, the actual value is set by the customers, typically some amount below MSRP. In the case of the GT350, Ford has been a bit cagey about availability, which has lead to high initial demand (or at least the expectation of high initial demand). Therefore dealers feel that in order to reduce the initial demand to those who see the most value in the car, they will charge ADM initially.

If Ford had said right off the bat that they will build as many GT350s as people order, then there'd be no leverage for dealers to charge ADM. But instead Ford said thing like "we will build one less than there is demand for" and that the numbers will be similar to the GT500. It is totally fair to blame dealers for charging ADM, but Ford could have mitigated the situation as well. Even if they did emphasize that anyone who wants one could get one (which I do think they stated) there's still the issue of how quickly they can fulfill the demand, so there will be chances for ADM initially in order to balance that.

Anyway, yes, ADM is annoying, and I'd try like hell to find a dealer who doesnt charge it, and it does affect my perception of dealers that do, but I understand why and try not to get too worked up about it. But still won't buy anything from the Nissan dealer that tried to charge me ADM back in 2002. So feel free to consider me a hypocrite! ;-)

-T

Ford sets a recommended price based on the costs involved to get from point "A", which is nothing to point "B" which is the deliverable.

This is a logical approach to suggesting a price that will make a profit on the vehicle and maintain the margins they know to be acceptable. Its not rocket science.

The dealer model seems to exploit the word "Suggested".

However it is suggested for all the right reasons. ADM's are applied currently for all the wrong reasons.

 

[Trackaholic]

Ford sets a recommended price based on the costs involved to get from point "A", which is nothing to point "B" which is the deliverable.

This is a logical approach to suggesting a price that will make a profit on the vehicle and maintain the margins they know to be acceptable. Its not rocket science.

The dealer model seems to exploit the word "Suggested".

However it is suggested for all the right reasons. ADM's are applied currently for all the wrong reasons.

Typically I suspect Ford chooses a target price based on market requirements, and designs and specifies the components around that. Certainly there is a give and take, but remember the discussions around the S550 launch and how all of the designers had various things they would have liked to add if they had another few hundred dollars in the budget.

IMO ADM is a double edges sword. It gets the dealer some extra profits in the beginning, but leaves a bad taste in the mouth of the consumer. In the end it comes down to how well the MSRP aligns with the perceived value and overall demand.

-T

 

[Cruzinaround]

Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price takes into account all those concerns. It is set according to their own bean counters to maintain a margin of profitability for their set goals which benefits FoMoCO and the dealerships they sell to at far below this MSRP....while not alienating their target demographic.

The Dealerships by placing ADM's on the vehicles... in all likely hood without even checking in with the Manufacturer they represent... do in fact alienate the target demographic.

The Manufacturers and the targeted Client base are then disconnected. This where the brand loyalty comes into play. The Dealerships destroy this powerful tool for maintaining repeat business. I've said it before....If I owned the manufacturing plant that these dealerships are supplied from only to witness a decline in brand loyalty due to their tactics.... I would immediately look for alternatives to restructure the selling model and eliminate the dealership from the equation.

This would net my Company more sales in the long term and a growing brand loyalty that would insure continued revenues ongoing.

 

[robb]

If it's true dealers only get one per year, then they will certainly not sell them at list price in most cases. Someone WILL pay ADM.

 

[Cruzinaround]

Maybe the GT350R.... But if they do that you'll see the ones that don't sell drop in price like recent Z28's

The GT350's will likely be far more available.

 

[Trackaholic]

If I owned the manufacturing plant that these dealerships are supplied from only to witness a decline in brand loyalty due to their tactics.... I would immediately look for alternatives to restructure the selling model and eliminate the dealership from the equation.

This would net my Company more sales in the long term and a growing brand loyalty that would insure continued revenues ongoing.

If I were a new MFR, I too would try and sell direct (as Tesla has attempted to do, and succeeded in some states).

Ford does not have that luxury unless they can get the laws changed. Not holding my breath for that one.

-T

 

[Grimace427]

If it's true dealers only get one per year, then they will certainly not sell them at list price in most cases. Someone WILL pay ADM.

Some dealers might only get one, but most will have several due to their history of Mustang sales.

 

[Cruzinaround]

If Tesla makes headway in the States they are in..Then Ford, GM, etc etc can also setup direct buy showrooms. IN THOSE STATES.

It would still serve the purpose of eliminating the tendency to ADM their product. Simply because if Texas dealers decide that ADM will apply to said vehicle for whatever excuse they come up with then....there are currently 22 other states I can go to and buy direct. So Texas can bite my longhorns. I'll go to Florida.

 

[Cruzinaround]

In Fact I can live in Texas..order my car online and accept delivery in Missippi. Then Drive back to Dallas with a license plate that says DLRSSUK.

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