Deatschwerks X3 Fuel system

[CarlC]

Thanks svo. It would not make reasonable sense to pulse the negative side but weirder things are out there, so it's best to check.

For the KPM1500 (It's a great part) the DualX kit like this will work well: Ally Pulse Width Modulation Controller Kit - DualX Positive or Negative – Aeromotive

and....

LS/LT/FPDM/OEM PWM Controller Series Engines - Ally Fuel Module Controller - VaporWorx
Just make believe that the two ZL1 fuel modules shown are twin DW400's.

The photos need to be updated on the website (thanks for your patience, it's a large time- consuming task to re-shoot/update websites) but connections are pretty simple:

1) 20ga grey wire to connect to the primary pulsed wire (Pump+ from the FSCM.) There is a yellow wire available that is negative pulse that will not be used.
2) Battery power in.
3) Pump power, positive and negative, to the secondary pump.

No Hobb's, relays, etc. The VaporWorx controller turns on/off via the signal from the FSCM.


For naked pumps with check valves and for auxiliary pumps with check valves The Auto-On kit should work well, Aeromotive P/N 66187.

For now, let's use this since the Aeromotive webpage is under development: Ally Auto-On PWM Fuel Pump Controller - VaporWorx

This kit is available but only with the stand-alone MAP sensor. The senor mount is this part: MAP Sensor Mounting Bracket / Mounting Block, Bosch – Aeromotive

This MAP sensor provides voltage feedback to the VaporWorx controller. The controller then turns on at 5psi boost, off at 2psi boost. Like the DualX controller, once the Auto-on is running it uses the FSCM pulse for guidance.

Wiring is a bit different. Instead of a grey wire going to the FSCM pulsed wire, it's blue. The grey 20ga wire is used for 5v to the stand-alone MAP sensor.

There is no adjustment needed with either kit. Ramp rate, turn-on point, etc. is all built in.

To order it is suggested to call in to Aeromotve Tech and ask for 66187. They are available to order via telephone along with other parts you may need.

Other considerations:

1) If going returnless and a check valve is in the system to keep line pressure high a safety overpressure regulator is needed. At KOEO with the engine warm on hot days heat soak will cause the line pressure to go up. It will go over 200psi on hot days. This is not good for lines and fittings. But, the real problem is that once the line pressure is over about 100psi at KOEO the injectors cannot cycle, hence the engine will not start. The easiest way to add a safety overpressure regulator is to use a Radium Engineering 20-0014 regulator holder and use an Aeromotive 63103 85psi regulator. The 20-0014 can be plumbed inline using the AN6 ORB ports or put on a "T" branch.

2) All aftermarket pumping systems (hangers, inline, etc) require an inline fine element filter. The newer microglass filters are quite good. It is suggested to replace the filters regularly. It is best practice to have the fuel pressure sensor after the filter to account for pressure loss as the filter clogs. If this is not practical then the filter must be changed on a very short maintenance interval, so buy spares.

3) If given a choice I'll always keep the FSCM working. It's a great piece and has better diagnostics than anything else. The VaporWorx controller does not have feedback diagnostics, but having something in the system (OEM FSCM) is better than nothing.

4) The OEM fuel pressure sensor not only allows for good injector deltaP for power production, but just as importantly for the OEM's is emissions reduction. We may poo-poo emissions, but think about how cool it is to have pressure feedback to the ECM that can then adjust IDC on the fly. That did not exist 20 years ago. Emissions is likely the single greatest technology advancement for hot rodding/power production in the last 40 years. Emissions has driven everything from CFD design of intakes, ports, pistons, and exhaust to sensors and ECM's, each increasing efficiency, performance, and capability. Even modern CATS are minimal horsepower killers.

Questions? Fire away.

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[svomadness]

You and I touched base on the Radium fuel hanger briefly by email the other day. Would love to go with the KPM fuel pump in the future but plan on sticking with Radium for now. Originally planned on removing the built in regulator and installing the block off plate for returnless. Thinking it might work as an overpressure regulator if set to 85PSI on a returnless setup. Will probably have to test it myself but thought I would run the idea past you. You also mentioned the Radium hanger is missing the venturi jets that stock pumps use. After watching your YT video on the ZL1 pump this makes more sense. I assume you mean the Radium doesn't have the venturi's sucking fuel on the bottom of the basket like the stock does. Thinking of adding a tee and a small hose that runs to the bottom of the tank from the larger hose that pulls fuel from the passenger side to maybe help keep the basket full of gas during spirited driving. Again, probably one of those things I'll have to test myself but thought I would throw it out there for myself and the people already running Arcane fuel systems

 

[CarlC]

Right. Many aftermarket fuel companies delete the primary jet pump since it takes fuel do drive them. Fuel to drive the jet pumps means less fuel to the engine. Sizing for the primary reservoir jet pumps (many have two just for the main reservoir) must be enough to keep the reservoir full at maximum fuel demand at the lowest expected pressure. Some fuel modules have crappy jet pumps (Gen5 Camaro SS) while some are kick ass (ZL1, GT and GT500.) I define crappy as just barely able to keep up with demand using a stock pump, kick ass as keeping up under very low pressures far below what will be expected.

Why delete the jet pump(s) in the aftermarket?

1) It's hard to integrate them, and to keep costs down the OE's are injection molding. The aftermarket traditionally does not want to go there due to costs. KPM is the only one that has spent the $$$$$ and time to produce real molds. It's a serious investment.

2) They take away from the output to the engine. From a marketing standpoint, if two companies have the same pumps in their fuel hanger/module, but one gives 15% better flowrate, most folks will push the higher flowrate buy button. But what if the lower flowrate option has jet pumps that will suck the tank dry all the way down to empty with zero compromises and meets the fuel demand?

There are always compromises, but if the OEM's felt that a few $0.10 umbrella valves + delete the jet pumps would meet WOT fuel demand and reliability requirements when the liquid level is below the top of the reservoir, they would do it.

 

[cbrtrx]

You and I touched base on the Radium fuel hanger briefly by email the other day. Would love to go with the KPM fuel pump in the future but plan on sticking with Radium for now. Originally planned on removing the built in regulator and installing the block off plate for returnless. Thinking it might work as an overpressure regulator if set to 85PSI on a returnless setup. Will probably have to test it myself but thought I would run the idea past you. You also mentioned the Radium hanger is missing the venturi jets that stock pumps use. After watching your YT video on the ZL1 pump this makes more sense. I assume you mean the Radium doesn't have the venturi's sucking fuel on the bottom of the basket like the stock does. Thinking of adding a tee and a small hose that runs to the bottom of the tank from the larger hose that pulls fuel from the passenger side to maybe help keep the basket full of gas during spirited driving. Again, probably one of those things I'll have to test myself but thought I would throw it out there for myself and the people already running Arcane fuel systems

The radium doesn't have the jet pump but like you mentioned it uses a venturi to bring fuel over from the other side, the return is constantly returning fuel right down to the pump filters as well as the plungers like mentioned so in most applications I think it would be sufficient. Now with very low fuel levels I wouldn't recommend racing with it but most people are aware of that already.

Definitely the more options we have the better though, I'm glad more companies are putting out more refined products finally.

 

[Angrey]

The radium doesn't have the jet pump but like you mentioned it uses a venturi to bring fuel over from the other side, the return is constantly returning fuel right down to the pump filters as well as the plungers like mentioned so in most applications I think it would be sufficient. Now with very low fuel levels I wouldn't recommend racing with it but most people are aware of that already.

Definitely the more options we have the better though, I'm glad more companies are putting out more refined products finally.

There's absolutely no way I'd prefer to run this basket over the Radium, for a number of reasons. Right off the bat, if you want to service your "filter" instead of swapping out an in line filter, you now have to pull the basket. Nope.

Second, this isn't an improvement over the Radium. The Radium has a venturi that draws from the crossover line from the passenger side saddle.

People always tend to fail to grasp that return flow and venturi flow are net zero gains for your pump feed.

What does that mean? It means it does you NO GOOD WHATSOEVER to keep the pump "wet" with return flow or jet flow. Why? Because you have to suck that amount of volume just to operate the system.

Let's say you need 200 liters per hour at the rail/injectors. You're returning an additional 100 l/h in the return line and the jet flow/venturi flow is bleeding off another 40 l/hour.

That means that your primary pump is drawing a total of 340 liters/hour just to feed the rail the 200 liters/hour it needs.

So while you might be pushing 140 liters per hour into the basket, it's just moving water from one end of the pool to the other. It's not helping you, you're just paying the bills to run the system.

Or put simply another way, you could have 1000 liters/hour coming into your basket, but if it's from return flow OR the flow required to run the venturi/jets, then it's not helping you feed the motor, it's going right back through the pump again to satisfy the return and the venturi.

The only thing that creates a net fuel availability for the primary pump is either inflow from the surrounding side of the fuel tank (either over the top if the fuel level is high enough or through a one way gate/valve through the bottom orifice in the basket if it features that, and any flow that's being drawn or pushed from the passenger side, or the additional flow created by the venturi, which is pretty low.

There's no free lunches. If you want adequate fuel around your primary fuel pump, you either run a surge tank (which requires a lift pump to keep the surge reservoir filled) or you run a modified version of that and have some secondary lift pumps either on the passenger saddle or with a pickup in the primary side.

The Radium bucket also allows you to run multiple pumps, it has the sealed posts that you can run and configure multiple pump connections for brushless pumps, etc.

The best solution is to simply eliminate/replace the siphon system with a set of dedicated low pressure lift pumps. They draw very little current and constantly keep the bucket/reservoir overflowing with fuel (that's not just recycled flow from either the return or the siphon drive) that you can draw from the passenger saddle or the bottom of the primary saddle (or a combination of both).

There has to be some form of flow from the passenger saddle otherwise you'll never be able to bring fuel that's lower than the center hump over unless you do a right hand turn to get gravity flow up and over, which will never get all or even most of it over.

The simplest solution is to attach a lift pump or two on the passenger side pickup and drive fuel to the other side. There's multiple ways you can operate it or automate it.

This frees up primary flow for your main pump because now it doesn't have a constant "bleed" of flow off it (that physically is no different than a leak).

 

[cbrtrx]

There's absolutely no way I'd prefer to run this basket over the Radium, for a number of reasons. Right off the bat, if you want to service your "filter" instead of swapping out an in line filter, you now have to pull the basket. Nope.

Second, this isn't an improvement over the Radium. The Radium has a venturi that draws from the crossover line from the passenger side saddle.

People always tend to fail to grasp that return flow and venturi flow are net zero gains for your pump feed.

What does that mean? It means it does you NO GOOD WHATSOEVER to keep the pump "wet" with return flow or jet flow. Why? Because you have to suck that amount of volume just to operate the system.

Let's say you need 200 liters per hour at the rail/injectors. You're returning an additional 100 l/h in the return line and the jet flow/venturi flow is bleeding off another 40 l/hour.

That means that your primary pump is drawing a total of 340 liters/hour just to feed the rail the 200 liters/hour it needs.

So while you might be pushing 140 liters per hour into the basket, it's just moving water from one end of the pool to the other. It's not helping you, you're just paying the bills to run the system.

Or put simply another way, you could have 1000 liters/hour coming into your basket, but if it's from return flow OR the flow required to run the venturi/jets, then it's not helping you feed the motor, it's going right back through the pump again to satisfy the return and the venturi.

The only thing that creates a net fuel availability for the primary pump is either inflow from the surrounding side of the fuel tank (either over the top if the fuel level is high enough or through a one way gate/valve through the bottom orifice in the basket if it features that, and any flow that's being drawn or pushed from the passenger side, or the additional flow created by the venturi, which is pretty low.

There's no free lunches. If you want adequate fuel around your primary fuel pump, you either run a surge tank (which requires a lift pump to keep the surge reservoir filled) or you run a modified version of that and have some secondary lift pumps either on the passenger saddle or with a pickup in the primary side.

The Radium bucket also allows you to run multiple pumps, it has the sealed posts that you can run and configure multiple pump connections for brushless pumps, etc.

The best solution is to simply eliminate/replace the siphon system with a set of dedicated low pressure lift pumps. They draw very little current and constantly keep the bucket/reservoir overflowing with fuel (that's not just recycled flow from either the return or the siphon drive) that you can draw from the passenger saddle or the bottom of the primary saddle (or a combination of both).

There has to be some form of flow from the passenger saddle otherwise you'll never be able to bring fuel that's lower than the center hump over unless you do a right hand turn to get gravity flow up and over, which will never get all or even most of it over.

The simplest solution is to attach a lift pump or two on the passenger side pickup and drive fuel to the other side. There's multiple ways you can operate it or automate it.

This frees up primary flow for your main pump because now it doesn't have a constant "bleed" of flow off it (that physically is no different than a leak).

I use the radium bucket for my setup, it works well for me, I have no issue unless going wot with a low fuel level. I do like my in-line microglass filter as well. It's definitely good more companies are coming out with more options though it will only help the community. I like the idea of still using PWM controllers for our cars as well.

 

[SheepDog]

I use the radium bucket for my setup, it works well for me, I have no issue unless going wot with a low fuel level. I do like my in-line microglass filter as well. It's definitely good more companies are coming out with more options though it will only help the community. I like the idea of still using PWM controllers for our cars as well.

Im running the Vaporworx PWM controller, with the Radium bucket and 2x 274's. Works great. The KPM system wasn't available when I installed my return system, so in an effort to not discard all of the components that I had already invested in, this seemed like a decent tradeoff.

Initially I was having some issues with fuel delivery at high RPM/Boost, but it turned out that a tuning revision was needed and had nothing to do with the new controller or MAP sensor. Wengerd changed something to do with how the injectors work, making them "behave" like a return-less system. (sorry, Im no tuner and don't pretend to be one, I'm sure he or Eng. Mike could explain it better).

 

[cbrtrx]

Im running the Vaporworx PWM controller, with the Radium bucket and 2x 274's. Works great. The KPM system wasn't available when I installed my return system, so in an effort to not discard all of the components that I had already invested in, this seemed like a decent tradeoff.

Initially I was having some issues with fuel delivery at high RPM/Boost, but it turned out that a tuning revision was needed and had nothing to do with the new controller or MAP sensor. Wengerd changed something to do with how the injectors work, making them "behave" like a return-less system. (sorry, Im no tuner and don't pretend to be one, I'm sure he or Eng. Mike could explain it better).

I'm sure he just put your injector pressure offsets back to stock. There's no need to have changed them on a gen 3 car to begin with.

 

[NGOT8R]

I don’t know much about the Radium or Deatschwerks X3, except that I have an X3 and can only hope that it works well enough to suit my needs. I think just about any fuel system (short of spending $7K +) is going to be about the same when it comes to following the best practice of having 3/4 to a full tank when going WOT.

@Angrey you blew my mind with post #215. My head hurt after reading all of that. That’s not a knock either, it just says that you‘re knowledgeable in that area. You guys clearly know far more than I do about fueling. All I know is, I need a steady supply and enough of it, as well as strong pumps that will last a good while.

Correct me if I’m wrong here guys, but most aftermarket systems still have the filter sock on the pump inlet (pre-filter) and then the inline filter which is what is to be serviced at regular intervals, unless of course some end users want to pull the basket and change the pre-filters at the same time. This makes me really think about doing that. I imagine that after doing this a few times it wouldn’t seem like so much of a hassle.

 

[SheepDog]

unless of course some end users want to pull the basket and change the pre-filters at the same time.

I think the pumps themselves on a return system, that are running full tilt all the time should be considered maintenance items anyway. $250 once a year, and maybe 2 hours of my time is well worth the peace of mind and effort.

 

[NGOT8R]

I think the pumps themselves on a return system, that are running full tilt all the time should be considered maintenance items anyway. $250 once a year, and maybe 2 hours of my time is well worth the peace of mind and effort.

That’s where that PWM controller will come in handy and help keep the pumps happy. It’s still a good idea to change the filter socks annually though.

Does anyone know of any data regarding the life expectancy of a DW400 pump running at full tilt from the time of install until petered out? I’d be curious to know what that data looks like.

 

[SheepDog]

That’s where that PWM controller will come in handy and help keep the pumps happy. It’s still a good idea to change the filter socks annually though.

Does anyone know of any data regarding the life expectancy of a DW400 pump running at full tilt from the time of install until petered out? I’d be curious to know what that data looks like.

My next pump replacement, I'm going to install 2x of the 295 version, that doesn't have the check valves in place, then install another Radium check valve right after my inline fuel filter. This way, if one pump shits the bed, the other pump will just back-feed through the dead pump and kill the engine. One of the main issues with these dual/triple pump setups is that there is no warning or way to monitor the pumps, so if one dies, your motor still runs on the functional pump, but when you go WOT, you melt a piston.

 

[svomadness]

Agreed NGOT8R, some great info being shared here. CarlC I would like to ask again your thoughts on the built in Radium regulator working as an overpressure regulator and would like some more details on how the JMS fuelmax can be tied in with the Ally contoller

 

[cbrtrx]

Any of these systems should really be using a microglass filter as well as the pump sock filter. Stainless in-line filters aren't really any better then the sock filter which does little. Most injector companies don't recommend otherwise and will void a warranty issue if you're not running a microglass pre-filter.

 

[SheepDog]

Any of these systems should really be using a microglass filter as well as the pump sock filter. Stainless in-line filters aren't really any better then the sock filter which does little. Most injector companies don't recommend otherwise and will void a warranty issue if you're not running a microglass pre-filter.

Indeed. I have this 6 micron Microglass one. The only annoying part is that they want you to replace it every 3000 miles when using Alcohol
Fuel Filter Elements

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