Can you modify the Whipple Tune?

[Rolls]

As far as I know a tune flashed and locked with RTD cannot be downloaded with MPVIx.

Two different file formats. I know I've tried to open RTD tunes with my MPVI2 and it doesn't work.

You would need PCMtec with custom OS option to open it I believe.

@Wengerd Performance or @Rolls Might pop in and give a positive answer
Maybe @engineermike knows

PCMTEC can read whipple tunes even with scrambled OSIDs. We don't enable OSID unscrambling by default unless it's your own tune and you are porting over to our ecosystem. However contact support and we can always help out where possible.

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[Tim90NOS]

What version of HPT are you using?

I still think it is a locked tune but using the newest Beta might open it.

I'm running 4.10.7, I don't want to update due to reasons listed above. Even if the newest beta will open it, I wont be able to do what I need to do with the new software vs old.

PCMTEC can read whipple tunes even with scrambled OSIDs. We don't enable OSID unscrambling by default unless it's your own tune and you are porting over to our ecosystem. However contact support and we can always help out where possible.

Thanks for the response. It's good to know this is an option, but being an amateur I'm reaching the end of my comfort level and dont want to risk bricking the PCM or messing up the tune.

The car had a bad battery on arrival, went to inspect it and the monitors were unready. It had a P0430 code on B2S2, we replaced the battery and 02 sensor, threw the same code, added mini-cat, can't get the O2 sensor or O2 sensor heater to complete now. Also catalyst and evap incomplete.

The cat may be bad. We're running out of patience and time to get the inspection done. At this point we're likely going to have the car retuned by a pro. Not the worst outcome, and may be better in the long run. Really appreciate the responses from all you guys, if anyone has any ideas please LMK.

-Tim

 

[K4fxd]

Unless someone has turned off your sensors a tune won't solve your problem.

Try logging your 02 sensors.

 

[Rolls]

Thanks for the response. It's good to know this is an option, but being an amateur I'm reaching the end of my comfort level and dont want to risk bricking the PCM or messing up the tune.

The car had a bad battery on arrival, went to inspect it and the monitors were unready. It had a P0430 code on B2S2, we replaced the battery and 02 sensor, threw the same code, added mini-cat, can't get the O2 sensor or O2 sensor heater to complete now. Also catalyst and evap incomplete.

-Tim

Everything you change from stock decreases the chances of the tests passing. Especially if it's winter and cold there. You have to be in very specific conditions for the tests to even execute let alone pass. Most dealers here in Australia send cars out with half the monitors pending.

The PCM is unbrickable, save your tune and you can always put it back in.

Datalogging is the only way you'll solve this.

I would seriously try forscan. They are extremely cheap and I'm fairly sure someone has posted on their forums the process to pass the tests. You can then log the DIDs and see why it's failing. Replacing part randomly is going to waste time and money.

I'm fairly sure you can trigger some of these tests to attempt to run manually via most scan tools as well.

 

[Rolls]

From a brief look at a 2020 GT this is what I could find

ECT between 160°F and 260°F
Ambient temp between 44°F 140°F

Cat temp between 1,000 °F and 1,500 °F

AFR must be matured (if its a flex tune)
Fuel level must not be low

O2 sensor heater must not be in a failure state (uses some complicated impedance check to infer the temperature of the O2 sensor). Eg must be within 10ohms and 150k Ohms

Rpm must be below 4000 rpm

If a new cat is "Detected" no idea how this is determined, the engine has to run for at least 3600 seconds. If a new cat is detected it has to reach at least 800 °F.

Pedal must be at part throttle with no more than 2 lb/min of airflow detected

It must see a nice oscillation during this period between the two cats for some specific time period to pass.

There is also some logic that disables the test if it sees errors or the engine is in specific states, eg it won't even attempt to run the test. Evap being incomplete would almost certainly block it as a guess, I would try and solve that first.

No tuner is going to turn your cat tests off or mess with these parameters, also they have been removed from most software as well as if the cat test fails, the inspectors want to see it on an OBD scan and a MIL lamp on the dash. People will lose their business over messing with this kind of stuff and some inspectors do track CVN numbers etc to see if a car has been tuned (second hand information). Stock tune is your best bet.

There is about 20,000 lines of assembler code for this test alone, these were the stand out limits/tests I could see. The actual test logic for the oscillation comparison, and wave form itself is too complex to read easily from the asm.

 

[K4fxd]

From a brief look at a 2020 GT this is what I could find

Thank you

It's nice to get real info.

 

[Rolls]

Thank you

It's nice to get real info.

No problem. I find this kind of stuff fun when I have the time to go digging.

 

[K4fxd]

No tuner is going to turn your cat tests off or mess with these parameters,

I'd like to agree but some who tune locally may or may not turn off things.

There is the possibility this tune was before the EPA was getting firearms and using them.

 

[Rolls]

Let's keep the industry alive and instead of wasting money on a tune + fake cats buy 1 or 2 of those cats Greg banish recommends imo.

They will get cheaper the more people buy them.

https://www.hotrod.com/how-to/catalytic-converter-vs-straight-pipes-horsepower/

 

[engineermike]

@Rolls for anyone interested this post shows what a cat test looks like in the o2 sensor signals. I’ve found it usually does this within the first 5 minutes of driving once the engine is warmed up and you run steady speed.

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/roush-5-0-cat-failure-caught-in-the-act.203550/

 

[Tim90NOS]

From a brief look at a 2020 GT this is what I could find

ECT between 160°F and 260°F
Ambient temp between 44°F 140°F

Cat temp between 1,000 °F and 1,500 °F

AFR must be matured (if its a flex tune)
Fuel level must not be low

O2 sensor heater must not be in a failure state (uses some complicated impedance check to infer the temperature of the O2 sensor). Eg must be within 10ohms and 150k Ohms

Rpm must be below 4000 rpm

If a new cat is "Detected" no idea how this is determined, the engine has to run for at least 3600 seconds. If a new cat is detected it has to reach at least 800 °F.

Pedal must be at part throttle with no more than 2 lb/min of airflow detected

It must see a nice oscillation during this period between the two cats for some specific time period to pass.

There is also some logic that disables the test if it sees errors or the engine is in specific states, eg it won't even attempt to run the test. Evap being incomplete would almost certainly block it as a guess, I would try and solve that first.

No tuner is going to turn your cat tests off or mess with these parameters, also they have been removed from most software as well as if the cat test fails, the inspectors want to see it on an OBD scan and a MIL lamp on the dash. People will lose their business over messing with this kind of stuff and some inspectors do track CVN numbers etc to see if a car has been tuned (second hand information). Stock tune is your best bet.

There is about 20,000 lines of assembler code for this test alone, these were the stand out limits/tests I could see. The actual test logic for the oscillation comparison, and wave form itself is too complex to read easily from the asm.

Thank you, this looks a lot like the Ford readiness monitors/emissions drive cycle posted on HPt (link below). We've done this several times now, weather has been cold but managed to keep IATs above 40f.

https://forum.hptuners.com/showthread.php?77814-Ford-Readiness-Monitors-Emissions-Tests

Let's keep the industry alive and instead of wasting money on a tune + fake cats buy 1 or 2 of those cats Greg banish recommends imo.

They will get cheaper the more people buy them.

https://www.hotrod.com/how-to/catalytic-converter-vs-straight-pipes-horsepower/

Good article. A friend has Kooks greencats and they eliminated the smell from the high overlap cam.

This 2019 bullitt has what appears to be a 50 state legal Whipple kit, stock cats, resonator delete, stock mufflers. I can datalog the next readiness drive with VCM scanner. It looks like Forscan will let me dig a little deeper into what's going on?

 

[Tim90NOS]

Let's keep the industry alive and instead of wasting money on a tune + fake cats buy 1 or 2 of those cats Greg banish recommends imo.

They will get cheaper the more people buy them.

https://www.hotrod.com/how-to/catalytic-converter-vs-straight-pipes-horsepower/

Good point, better to find the real issue and fix it. Appreciate the reality check. Part of the frustration is the monitor sequence, which seems nearly impossible to complete in the northeast US in winter weather.

@Rolls for anyone interested this post shows what a cat test looks like in the o2 sensor signals. I’ve found it usually does this within the first 5 minutes of driving once the engine is warmed up and you run steady speed.

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/roush-5-0-cat-failure-caught-in-the-act.203550/

After reading that thread and THIS one, I'm wondering if the cat is toasted. Will Forscan let me figure that out without taking the exhaust off? Or at least get me closer to finding the problem before tearing things down?

Really appreciate the responses and knowledge you guys have shared.

-Tim

 

[K4fxd]

You have to log o2's and capture a test cycle.

 

[engineermike]

It’s easiest with hpt vcmscanner..

 

[Tim90NOS]

You have to log o2's and capture a test cycle.

It’s easiest with hpt vcmscanner..

Following advice above, I removed the spacer/minicat from B2S2 and did a datalog with VCM scanner. I can't get B1S1 or B2S1 to populate in HPT, it gives me the "unsupported parameter" symbol when I try to add those and you can see they are not logged below. Is this normal? Should I bring up a different parameter to test the cat functionality?

Any help greatly appreciated.

-Tim

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