Which aftermarket radiator?

[shogun32]

Like in above link, I'd like to preserve the factory water-oil cooler, which the Harrop option does not seem to allow. And just my guess is that that cooler alone might not be sufficient. it's based purely on the fact that people have to install much bigger oil radiators to make it work.

I don't know why you'd want to retain that water/oil cooler which is a grenade ready to go off. The Harrop is significantly bigger than the one Ford puts in the Mach1.

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[Ryan_s550]

I don't know why you'd want to retain that water/oil cooler which is a grenade ready to go off. The Harrop is significantly bigger than the one Ford puts in the Mach1.

Agreed. I dont see the advantage of keeping it myself. Your overall cooling of both systems are the same whether they are joined or segregated. The dedicated oil cooler lowered my coolant temps significantly, more than the upgraded radiator. Either way you are likely going to have some problems keeping everything as cool as you would like without a serious cooler.

 

[tosha]

I don't know why you'd want to retain that water/oil cooler which is a grenade ready to go off. The Harrop is significantly bigger than the one Ford puts in the Mach1.

Dunno, just an assumption that 2 coolers would be more efficient than one? I guess it's an attempt to oversize the whole system - have big radiator, stock water-oil cooler and air to oil cooler all work in tandem to cool down the beast. Mine is supercharged, so every bit should help and I have much less real estate to keep adding the coolers.
A lot of it is just trial and error approach.

 

[Ryan_s550]

Think of this, your overall cooling capacity is limited by how much heat your coolers can reject. Keeping the water to oil cooler will just make your radiator have to reduce coolant and oil temps. Im not saying it couldnt work as a pre cooler before going through your air to oil cooler but your overall system capacity is the same.

 

[tosha]

Think of this, your overall cooling capacity is limited by how much heat your coolers can reject. Keeping the water to oil cooler will just make your radiator have to reduce coolant and oil temps. Im not saying it couldnt work as a pre cooler before going through your air to oil cooler but your overall system capacity is the same.

That is a good point, I didn't think of it from overall heat capacity perspective. The amount of heat produced does not really change, so with everything else being equal, water-oil cooler may not do much as long as everything else is sized properly. I'll give it some more thought.

 

[Ryan_s550]

The advantage

That is a good point, I didn't think of it from overall heat capacity perspective. The amount of heat produced does not really change, so with everything else being equal, water-oil cooler may not do much as long as everything else is sized properly. I'll give it some more thought.

The only advantage I could see is keeping oil and water temps more balanced. What I typically see is oil temps are usually warmer than coolant temps. I can control oil temps fairly well by shifting around 6000-6500 vs 7500. Im not losing much time with nearly 700whp by doing so. I dont typically run glory laps for 20+ min.

 

[tosha]

The advantage

The only advantage I could see is keeping oil and water temps more balanced. What I typically see is oil temps are usually warmer than coolant temps. I can control oil temps fairly well by shifting around 6000-6500 vs 7500. Im not losing much time with nearly 700whp by doing so. I dont typically run glory laps for 20+ min.

That's pretty much what I do as well, and I have OK CHT's after doing radiator ducting and full set of hood louvers, up to 80F ambient things are fine. Want to be able to run up to 95F and putting a bigger radiator is very easy. Putting a properly sized oil cooler is much more difficult with all the added SC cooling stuff, so I thought that if I put bigger rad, keep my stock oil cooler and put some smallish air to oil cooler in sequence, that should give me enough of safety net. What's the actual concern with that approach, aside from potential stock cooler failures?

 

[Ryan_s550]

I dont really see a problem with that approach. I think youll need a pretty significant oil cooler with very good airflow to keep things in check with 95° ambient temps. I definitely dont have enough cooling to run hard in that hot of weather. At some point I might look at a different cooler to extend my track season to be able to run earlier in the fall and later in the spring.

 

[GTP]

It seems to be very similar to what @GTP has built here: https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/track-time-limited-due-to-high-cht.166499/post-3599569
We can ask him how it's working

Like in above link, I'd like to preserve the factory water-oil cooler, which the Harrop option does not seem to allow. And just my guess is that that cooler alone might not be sufficient. it's based purely on the fact that people have to install much bigger oil radiators to make it work.

@tosha thanks for the mention.

You can go to my post in the link above, and then look for my other posts after it. So far my solution seems to be working well. Temps are under control and steady up to 30min sessions, but only tested around mid-80s ambient so far. I have not sealed off my air leaks yet. I run A10 and paddle shift at redline 3rd to 7th. However my tires are only 275 MPS4 square, so that helps.

My logic was to keep the oil/water cooler, because I thought that every little bit helps. I guessed that that cooler had to be worth at least 20kBTU/hr rejection.

Note that I chose the Setrab Com cooler which at 2" thick is thicker than the Harrop unit, and rated over 50kBTU/hr. It is pricey at around $700. It took a lot of trial and error figuring out how to get it to fit like the Harrop setup.

So if my solution gets me 50+20=70kBTU then that is about as much as the much larger Setrab units that guys have placed in front of the stack.

I opened every cell in upper and lower grilles. The lower plastic shield above the belly pan is lifted up to force the lower grille air exclusively through the cooler and then out the holes I cut into the belly pan. No extra hood venting yet.

Only 3 aluminum bracket pieces were needed to suspend the cooler, and 4 rubber grommets from Improved Racing isolate vibrations.

I can put together a nearly turnkey kit for anyone if interested.

I have heard it is nearly impossible to keep a SC Mustang cool on track. I am running OEM PP radiator with original coolant. I run 0W40 Euro oil for track season, and 5w30 off season.

Dunno, just an assumption that 2 coolers would be more efficient than one? I guess it's an attempt to oversize the whole system - have big radiator, stock water-oil cooler and air to oil cooler all work in tandem to cool down the beast. Mine is supercharged, so every bit should help and I have much less real estate to keep adding the coolers.
A lot of it is just trial and error approach.

The only advantage I could see is keeping oil and water temps more balanced. What I typically see is oil temps are usually warmer than coolant temps. I can control oil temps fairly well by shifting around 6000-6500 vs 7500. Im not losing much time with nearly 700whp by doing so. I dont typically run glory laps for 20+ min.

That's pretty much what I do as well, and I have OK CHT's after doing radiator ducting and full set of hood louvers, up to 80F ambient things are fine. Want to be able to run up to 95F and putting a bigger radiator is very easy. Putting a properly sized oil cooler is much more difficult with all the added SC cooling stuff, so I thought that if I put bigger rad, keep my stock oil cooler and put some smallish air to oil cooler in sequence, that should give me enough of safety net. What's the actual concern with that approach, aside from potential stock cooler failures?

 

[Ryan_s550]

That looks really nice. Setrab makes top notch parts. I used there thermostatic sandwich plate on mine, and might eventually get one of their coolers that has similar dimensions as my current setup. Not all cores are equal.

It isn't impossible to keep a supercharged car cool on track, but it takes a lot of work. There is a reason that you don't see many supercharged cars on track, especially fast ones (I've seen exceptions). The exception being for sprint/time attack type setups. Its not difficult to make something last for a lap. I don't have significant problems with ambient temps under 80. That generally gives me a window to go to the track between late October through April.

I think you are correct that the factory cooler will add some heat rejection to the oil system, however its that much less heat that you can remove from the coolant system. Nothing necessarily wrong with that since both contribute to cooling the engine. More than one way to skin a cat.

 

[tosha]

Note that I chose the Setrab Com cooler which at 2" thick is thicker than the Harrop unit, and rated over 50kBTU/hr. It is pricey at around $700

I like everything about it, except the price . Wonder if you or anyone considered this as an option: https://www.improvedracing.com/mhx-245-high-efficiency-oil-cooler.html
They claim double capacity compared to similar size Setrab units. No BTU ratings though.

What's also strange about Setrabs is that they should hold a lot more oil than indicated in specs. They one you picked should have over 3L of capacity based on core dimensions, yet it holds only 1.1 Qt. Not that I don't trust the specs, I just don't fully understand why.

I have heard it is nearly impossible to keep a SC Mustang cool on track.

Well, I guess me and few other people are here to try to prove it wrong .
You need to do certain things differently. A simple thing is not to rev it out to +7k rpm. There is not much point unless you're racing for money and there is so much torque across rpm range, that 6k shifts are perfectly fine. Then, the radiator ducting is a massive help even with everything else in cooling system being stock. Of course, you'd need hood louvers for extraction. Without the ducting, any other mods are half measures. I have a good baseline on my home track, where my CHT's dropped by over 15F just by adding ducts and vents, while I upgraded from street tires to 305 200tw square setup and dropped 5-10 seconds in lap times. Similar weather conditions.
Now I just need to make it reproducible in warmer ambient temps, so that I don't skip hot summer events))))

 

[Ryan_s550]

I like everything about it, except the price . Wonder if you or anyone considered this as an option: https://www.improvedracing.com/mhx-245-high-efficiency-oil-cooler.html
They claim double capacity compared to similar size Setrab units. No BTU ratings though.

What's also strange about Setrabs is that they should hold a lot more oil than indicated in specs. They one you picked should have over 3L of capacity based on core dimensions, yet it holds only 1.1 Qt. Not that I don't trust the specs, I just don't fully understand why.

Well, I guess me and few other people are here to try to prove it wrong .
You need to do certain things differently. A simple thing is not to rev it out to +7k rpm. There is not much point unless you're racing for money and there is so much torque across rpm range, that 6k shifts are perfectly fine. Then, the radiator ducting is a massive help even with everything else in cooling system being stock. Of course, you'd need hood louvers for extraction. Without the ducting, any other mods are half measures. I have a good baseline on my home track, where my CHT's dropped by over 15F just by adding ducts and vents, while I upgraded from street tires to 305 200tw square setup and dropped 5-10 seconds in lap times. Similar weather conditions.
Now I just need to make it reproducible in warmer ambient temps, so that I don't skip hot summer events))))

That looks like a solid option. Just make sure to consider where it will be mounted. I'm not that well versed on how much space you have in front of the radiator and intercooler on the GT350. There was essentially no space on my GT with the Whipple upgraded heat exchanger, hence the fender mounted location.

I don't think you have anything to worry about with Setrab's specs. They are a highly reputable company that engineers their products. You can't go just off core dimensions and come up with an oil volume. You only need to consider the end tank volume and tube volume. There is a lot of air space that doesn't get accounted for when calculating oil volume based on core dimensions. If the whole core dimensions were filled with oil your numbers would probably be really close. I run an extra half quart of oil (8.5q) to account for some cooler volume and to make sure I maintain plenty of oil in the sump while running higher rpm while pulling lateral Gs.

 

[tosha]

That looks like a solid option. Just make sure to consider where it will be mounted. I'm not that well versed on how much space you have in front of the radiator and intercooler on the GT350. There was essentially no space on my GT with the Whipple upgraded heat exchanger, hence the fender mounted location.

[I think you're confusing me with somebody, I don't have GT350, I have regular GT with Roush SC. otherwise, you are correct. it's very busy with the additional SC radiator there, that's why I'm looking into these narrow/long oil radiator options. this is the location I'm thinking of:

Just put it on top of crash bar. or maybe below. if these don't work out, then do what GTP did.

I don't think you have anything to worry about with Setrab's specs. They are a highly reputable company that engineers their products. You can't go just off core dimensions and come up with an oil volume. You only need to consider the end tank volume and tube volume. There is a lot of air space that doesn't get accounted for when calculating oil volume based on core dimensions. If the whole core dimensions were filled with oil your numbers would probably be really close. I run an extra half quart of oil (8.5q) to account for some cooler volume and to make sure I maintain plenty of oil in the sump while running higher rpm while pulling lateral Gs.

oh, I'm sure they are top choice . it's just an observation - Setrab dual pass 52-12965-01 has overall bigger core compared to ImprovedRacing MHX-245, yet the latter one has double oil capacity. more is not always better, so I'm wondering if there are any underlying issues with ImprovedRacing one. Also, I'm probably overthinking this all

 

[Ryan_s550]

Ah yes. I was thinking of another car. My whipple car didnt have room for an oil cooler up front though.

 

[Scat2018]

Where do u guys pick up the oil
Temp from.I got a whipple coming with the larger HE.I can’t believe this Mach 1 doesn’t have an oil temp gauge to read oil temp. A track car.U think they word of gave us the Gt500 performance pack gauges , but guess not because no my color

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