The Big Fat Track Car Cooling Thread

[TeeLew]

I know for sure that is also calculated. There is not a real coolant temp sensor.

Oil is calculated, agreed. The question du jour is are we looking cylinder head or coolant temp from the OBDII. Are you saying that coolant temp is _also_ inferred? If so, from what?

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[Flyhalf]

Oil is calculated, agreed. The question du jour is are we looking cylinder head or coolant temp from the OBDII. Are you saying that coolant temp is _also_ inferred? If so, from what?

Coolant is an inferred channel from CHT. It's an advanced algorithm ..
A very complex powertrain algorithm

 

[TeeLew]

Coolant is an inferred channel from CHT. It's an advanced algorithm ..
A very complex powertrain algorithm

I'd take a $3 sensor over the best algorithm any day of the week. Having said this, it looks like we're guessing both oil and water temp based off what we measure at the cylinder head. In this scenario, the penalty for allowing water, thus cylinder head, temp to go up is even greater.

 

[fatbillybob]

Because of this, we _have_ to get water temp under control. Anything north of 100*C on-track is not controlled enough, IMO.[/QUOTE]

100C or 212F on water is just drivng down the freeway part throttle on a sub 100F ambient day. Full throttle makes heat. There is a limited sq ft of area to house oil water and tranny coolers and opening big holes increase drag. So everything is a trade off. There is no perfection in racing just managing of problems.

Our issues with oil temp is actually more a product of the engines. With AL blocks and a steel crank, you have a difference in thermal expansion. As the temps climb. Sooner or later, you don't have enough oil to keep the crank floating and

You are making failure assumption with no data. What you propose is possible but you are just guessing. A better guess would be to take a known datapoint like we know the car can run a freeway all day long. With real guages you can note water and oil temp at freeways speeds. You can then note viscosity of oil at that running temp and shoot for that viscosity as a target. If at race speeds you are at 280F then pick an oil viscosity to match. So instead of 5-20 freeway oil you might run 20-50. This would be just the beginning of developing a cogent plan of attack.

Water is not the same story. When you get the water as hot as is being reported, you're much more likely to get localized pockets of boiling around the combustion chambers which will cause all sorts of detonation and pre-ignition.

Water getting hot might be a symptom of detonation but not a cause. Detonation is an fueling and or ignition timing issue. The micro boiling micro bubbles are not detonation they are cavitation. Cavitation and detonation cause different kinds of damage and have different kinds of solutions and causes..

I'm really confused as to why I'm getting such push-back on the subject of temperatures.

It's not the "subject". it's the temps. You will never get your car to run on track at speed at your target temps. If you do you are driving too slow. Go out to WSIR and post up some times with your temps. What you and I say is meaningless. The only truth is the stopwatch.

 

[fatbillybob]

I'd take a $3 sensor over the best algorithm any day of the week. Having said this, it looks like we're guessing both oil and water temp based off what we measure at the cylinder head. In this scenario, the penalty for allowing water, thus cylinder head, temp to go up is even greater.

Maybe? There are 2 issues. 1st is getting real temps. 2nd is understanding what combo cause "limp." For me as a lazy racer that means I'm not likely to get real gauges unless I have to. Real (accurate) gauges are not cheap. My default will be, "if the chimp don't limp...must be OK."

 

[Flyhalf]

There are some points I'd like to point out.
Cooling system start to work at 190f.
1. There is no way to keep the headtemps at 212cht for 25min shifting at 8000rpm with 95 f out. A 220-240 is pretty normal.
With cooler ambient temp aroumd 70f or below ..maybe
2. The best way to keep temps under control is to box and ducts all. (I alsomhave a water spray system to cool down. Works nicely.
3. In the case you are able to keep REAL temps below limit of limb mode we will still have issues with the limb mode triggered by algorithms that not consider the additional cooling you are bringing in.
4. All depends on the speed of the driver. I've heard many people sayin " I don't see any issues with the 10speed while I'm at my 3rd trans in 15kmiles. (With a 925 setrab cooler)..found out i was 12sec faster ..so all is relative.

 

[fatbillybob]

There are some points I'd like to point out.
Cooling system start to work at 190f.
1. There is no way to keep the headtemps at 212cht for 25min shifting at 8000rpm with 95 f out. A 220-240 is pretty normal.
With cooler ambient temp aroumd 70f or below ..maybe
2. The best way to keep temps under control is to box and ducts all. (I alsomhave a water spray system to cool down. Works nicely.
3. In the case you are able to keep REAL temps below limit of limb mode we will still have issues with the limb mode triggered by algorithms that not consider the additional cooling you are bringing in.
4. All depends on the speed of the driver. I've heard many people sayin " I don't see any issues with the 10speed while I'm at my 3rd trans in 15kmiles. (With a 925 setrab cooler)..found out i was 12sec faster ..so all is relative.

I completely agree with you! I'm seeing same temps and I operate at lower ambients because I personally can't take the heat. Ambient of 90F is my limit if it is somewhere I want to race. If I'm local in Cali that drops to 85F. I use a cool suit and cool clava in the winter and 90% of my racing is from November to June. Rarely I race in the summer like I will race at laguna this weekend but the temp is projected to be high of 70F. No way no how will you catch me at BRP at 100F.

Does Ford know why you are on your 3rd A10? Is it all the heat or something else? We have no data so it is up to us to figure it out. I do not know how big the 925 setraub is but I'm using a big derale 67,000btu cooler for both oil and trans. but no water spray. I may never see your problems because I do not operate at your ambient temps.

Like what I have down with my oil selection I am seriously thinking of going straight LV to get similar viscosity at higher operating temperature. At cold cali temps the thick LV is not thicker than the ULV at a colder temp within the car's operational range.

 

[Flyhalf]

I completely agree with you! I'm seeing same temps and I operate at lower ambients because I personally can't take the heat. Ambient of 90F is my limit if it is somewhere I want to race. If I'm local in Cali that drops to 85F. I use a cool suit and cool clava in the winter and 90% of my racing is from November to June. Rarely I race in the summer like I will race at laguna this weekend but the temp is projected to be high of 70F. No way no how will you catch me at BRP at 100F.

Does Ford know why you are on your 3rd A10? Is it all the heat or something else? We have no data so it is up to us to figure it out. I do not know how big the 925 setraub is but I'm using a big derale 67,000btu cooler for both oil and trans. but no water spray. I may never see your problems because I do not operate at your ambient temps.

Like what I have down with my oil selection I am seriously thinking of going straight LV to get similar viscosity at higher operating temperature. At cold cali temps the thick LV is not thicker than the ULV at a colder temp within the car's operational range.

I'm in norcal (next events laguna the 19th then sonoma oct 11 and willow springs 31st)
So first one failed do to high temps.
So second ome is with the setrab (black one in the pic)
Second one failure is related to the torque converter. Biggest issue is : the lockup clutch. In the 10speed the trans lockup pretty soon. The lockup clutch is built into the TC surface it self and not separated.
That is a big issue. Temps were absolutely under control then i started to have issues first N- 1-2 gear.
Car would turn on if ,with foot on brake , i will paddle to 1st gear. Car shut down like when in a manual you release the clutxh with brake on.
Clutches are in good condition.
This third ome will have upgraded reybestos clutches. I also trying to understamd the possible usage of LOW V. Fluid vs. ULTRA LV.
Last
In a camaro forum i found someone removing one of the spring in the valvebody to keep the trans circuit open all the time( now opens at 190f)
I'll keep u posted cause i should have the car back by momday.

 

[racingandfishing]

Article is a little old (2013), but it seems to be relevant to the engine oil temp discussion and from a reputable source.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/engine-oil-temperature/

 

[TeeLew]

Article is a little old (2013), but it seems to be relevant to the engine oil temp discussion and from a reputable source.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/engine-oil-temperature/

Nothing that I know of has changed with respect to cooling over the last several decades.

This sounds familiar: "Also remember that a high-end engine is built as a total combination. Piston-to-wall clearances, piston ring end-gaps, and bearing clearances are specifically tailored to match the engine oil's characteristics and intended operating temperature."

 

[SVO MkII]

I just got home from the track (Autobahn, Joliet, IL). I must say, I'm surprised, and disappointed. I thought for sure that my "real" oil temp gauge, using an actual sensor, would confirm that the inferred oil temp displayed in the car was materially higher than the actual temp, when at the track. Primarily due to the presence of an oil cooler (Mishimoto). When the inferred oil temp hit 280 (beginning of the yellow range), the actual oil temp was at least 275. So at best, the oil cooler was good for 5 deg. Whoopie! (Note: Mishimoto claims a 30 deg reduction in oil temp. Ahhh, no.)

I also learned a bit more about the relationship between the coolant temp gauge and CHT. Prior to today, I was pretty convinced that what was being displayed via OBD II apps, such as Torque, was actually CHT, not coolant temp. Now, I'm not sure. During street driving, the coolant temp displayed from OBD II always seemed to match the CHT gauge. However, at the track, I did see some deviance here. At times, the CHT reached 240, while the OBD II coolant temp showed about 227. That relationship seems reasonable, however. I also observed a bit of slightly erratic behavior from the factory engine temp gauge. It appeared to not operate with a linear relationship to the OBD II temp. At 200 deg on the OBD II temp, the factory gauge would be dead center. At 220, it still seemed to be dead center. But at by 230, it had quickly moved up to about 3/4 to the right. Odd.

Where do I go from here? It probably would be a good idea to try to increase the engine cooling capacity, e.g., larger radiator. Unfortunately, the most readily available radiator upgrade for the Ecoboost is the Mishimoto. Given the ineffectiveness of their oil cooler, I'm not thrilled about buying their radiator. I'll have to think long and hard about this one over the winter. In the interim, I may try adding an electric fan to the Mishimoto oil cooler to see if I can get more than 5 deg of cooling out of this thing.

The journey continues!

 

[TeeLew]

Where do I go from here? It probably would be a good idea to try to increase the engine cooling capacity, e.g., larger radiator. Unfortunately, the most readily available radiator upgrade for the Ecoboost is the Mishimoto. Given the ineffectiveness of their oil cooler, I'm not thrilled about buying their radiator. I'll have to think long and hard about this one over the winter. In the interim, I may try adding an electric fan to the Mishimoto oil cooler to see if I can get more than 5 deg of cooling out of this thing.

The journey continues!

Honestly, we need to work with C&R to produce a true track-worthy radiator. I'm definitely in for buying one. Can you give me some bullet points of different temps on track? What engine do you have and about how much power? I'll call them tomorrow and see what they can produce.

 

[SVO MkII]

Honestly, we need to work with C&R to produce a true track-worthy radiator. I'm definitely in for buying one. Can you give me some bullet points of different temps on track? What engine do you have and about how much power? I'll call them tomorrow and see what they can produce.

I'd certainly be interested in seeing what they could do. I have a 2018 EB PP (larger radiator). The engine is all stock, stock tune, but with a larger aftermarket intercooler. I'm seeing coolant and CHT routinely in the 220s to 240 range at the track. This results in oil temps of 280+. All of this has forced me to reduce RPMs after about 15 min of hard driving.

The Mishimoto radiator is described as a 2" core. I'm guessing a 3" core would be more appropriate. There appears to be plenty of room, especially moving back toward the engine. Another thing that might be helpful would be an oil/water oil cooler. I also have a 944 Turbo, which has both a oil/water and oil/air cooler, from the factory. No oil temp problems on track with this car.

Keep me posted.

 

[Flyhalf]

I just got home from the track (Autobahn, Joliet, IL). I must say, I'm surprised, and disappointed. I thought for sure that my "real" oil temp gauge, using an actual sensor, would confirm that the inferred oil temp displayed in the car was materially higher than the actual temp, when at the track. Primarily due to the presence of an oil cooler (Mishimoto). When the inferred oil temp hit 280 (beginning of the yellow range), the actual oil temp was at least 275. So at best, the oil cooler was good for 5 deg. Whoopie! (Note: Mishimoto claims a 30 deg reduction in oil temp. Ahhh, no.)

I also learned a bit more about the relationship between the coolant temp gauge and CHT. Prior to today, I was pretty convinced that what was being displayed via OBD II apps, such as Torque, was actually CHT, not coolant temp. Now, I'm not sure. During street driving, the coolant temp displayed from OBD II always seemed to match the CHT gauge. However, at the track, I did see some deviance here. At times, the CHT reached 240, while the OBD II coolant temp showed about 227. That relationship seems reasonable, however. I also observed a bit of slightly erratic behavior from the factory engine temp gauge. It appeared to not operate with a linear relationship to the OBD II temp. At 200 deg on the OBD II temp, the factory gauge would be dead center. At 220, it still seemed to be dead center. But at by 230, it had quickly moved up to about 3/4 to the right. Odd.

Where do I go from here? It probably would be a good idea to try to increase the engine cooling capacity, e.g., larger radiator. Unfortunately, the most readily available radiator upgrade for the Ecoboost is the Mishimoto. Given the ineffectiveness of their oil cooler, I'm not thrilled about buying their radiator. I'll have to think long and hard about this one over the winter. In the interim, I may try adding an electric fan to the Mishimoto oil cooler to see if I can get more than 5 deg of cooling out of this thing.

The journey continues!

What sandwich hole did you use for the sensor? The one coming or going to the cooler?

 

[fatbillybob]

Primarily due to the presence of an oil cooler (Mishimoto). When the inferred oil temp hit 280 (beginning of the yellow range), the actual oil temp was at least 275. So at best, the oil cooler was good for 5 deg. Whoopie! (Note: Mishimoto claims a 30 deg reduction in oil temp. Ahhh, no.)

The journey continues!

I never went mishimoto. The look of it did not jive with the claims. I guess my wag is correct. I wonder if there is a Ron Davis that could be used. IMO they are the best.

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