I like COVID 19

[Docscurlock]

Yes it sucks when people die, but ALL of us will die. It's just a fact of life. We live, then we die. I'm not sure we really know the mortality rate yet. We don't know the denominator. We are underestimating the number of people who have the disease by a large amount is what I think.

Why try and hurry it up by expiring drowning in your own bodily fluids instead of a fiery mustang wreck.

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[Gregs24]

Have some hospitals been overwhelmed? I've only heard people saying they will be, not that any actually have.

I think the average patient doesn't even know they have this thing. They just carry and transmit it. Which is a reason to isolate, but that is not sustainable over the long term. Most of the people who are really in danger are retirement age and they probably should isolate. I hope that soon we can move to a strategy where people have personal responsibility for themselves rather than the government forcing everyone out of their jobs and then printing tons of money. I personally would like to be able to just accept the fact that I might catch some disease and it might kill me and then decide for myself how I will behave.



Yes it sucks when people die, but ALL of us will die. It's just a fact of life. We live, then we die. I'm not sure we really know the mortality rate yet. We don't know the denominator. We are underestimating the number of people who have the disease by a large amount is what I think.

It is an interesting dilemma you raise. I think the difference with COVID19 is the huge skew in the mortality rate in older people. An overall mortality rate of 0.66% is estimated but that really doesn't tell the whole story with figures as high as 20% being suggested for the over 80's. Whilst I understand the 'I choose if I get it and die' bit, unfortunately (or fortunately for you) you probably will not die but a few infections down the line somebody old will die as a result of you not isolating if that is what you chose to do.

A lot comes down to social responsibility and inevitably if you have older relatives it concentrates the mind. I would like to think we live in a considerate world where we all do our bit for society in general, everybody needs a favour one day !

 

[Docscurlock]

I have quoted a couple below, but there is loads of information out there on how immune reactions work as well as estimations of the time post recovery immunity may last for COVID19. Humans are just animals by the way. As I pointed out before immunity post infection to coronaviruses of other types lasts months to years but clearly we haven't had COVID19 around for long enough yet to know what the specific duration will be, and inevitably there will be differences between individuals.

You seem very confused about vaccines / immunity. "Vaccines provide a mechanism to create antibodies to a particular infection, not immunity." you say. By definition vaccines are used to create immunity.

Definition: a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunity_(medical)


https://www.heart.org/en/news/2020/03/25/covid-19-science-understanding-the-basics-of-herd-immunity

Dr Stephen Gluckman, an infectious diseases physician at Penn Medicine and the medical director of Penn Global Medicine, 'it seems likely that having the disease once results in immunity in most individuals - as is seen with other coronaviruses.'

And what any of the population level epidemiology has to do with a single case (BJ) I don't know ?


You really need to get your facts right before slinging mud around. I don't mind sensible discussion or questions, but responding to my posts with antagonistic, ill founded ranting does not make for a worthwhile experience.

Your very first post in any of these threads was to sling mud at our President, who isn't in ICU BTW

 

[Gregs24]

Vaccines are like a training course for the immune system. They prepare the body to fight disease without exposing it to disease symptoms.

When foreign invaders such as bacteria or viruses enter the body, immune cells called lymphocytes respond by producing antibodies, which are protein molecules. These antibodies fight the invader known as an antigen and protect against further infection. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), a healthy individual can produce millions of antibodies a day, fighting infection so efficiently that people never even know they were exposed to an antigen. (Like influenza or measles)
Unfortunately, the first time the body faces a particular invader, it can take several days to ramp up this antibody response. For really nasty antigens like the measles virus or whooping cough bacteria (or CVF19) a few days is too long. The infection can spread and kill the person before the immune system can fight back.
That's where vaccines come in. According to the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia Vaccine Education Center, vaccines are made of dead or weakened antigens. They can't cause an infection, but the immune system still sees them as an enemy and produces antibodies in response. After the threat has passed, many of the antibodies will break down, but immune cells called memory cells remain in the body.

When the body encounters that antigen again, the memory cells produce antibodies fast and strike down the invader before it's too late.

Vaccines also work on a community level. Some people can't be vaccinated, either because they are too young, or because their immune systems are too weak, according to the CDC.

Here is an explanation o your herd immunity. -But if everyone around them is vaccinated, unvaccinated people are protected by something called herd immunity. In other words, they're unlikely to even come in contact with the disease, so they probably won't get sick. When it comes to vaccines, sometimes it can pay to follow the crowd. (When the disease is rampant, this herd immunity is impossible) (This is why the antivaxxers aren't dropping from polio, everyone else has been vaccinated so the chance of coming into contact with polio is slim)

Immunity is a word that is incorrectly used in this situation, your immune system, when vaccinated, can mount a quick, effective immune response killing the disease before you have symptoms.

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Just to add further clarification the definition of immunity is: the ability of an organism to resist a particular infection or toxin by the action of specific antibodies or sensitised white blood cells.

 

[Docscurlock]

It is an interesting dilemma you raise. I think the difference with COVID19 is the huge skew in the mortality rate in older people. An overall mortality rate of 0.66% is estimated but that really doesn't tell the whole story with figures as high as 20% being suggested for the over 80's. Whilst I understand the 'I choose if I get it and die' bit, unfortunately (or fortunately for you) you probably will not die but a few infections down the line somebody old will die as a result of you not isolating if that is what you chose to do.

A lot comes down to social responsibility and inevitably if you have older relatives it concentrates the mind. I would like to think we live in a considerate world where we all do our bit for society in general, everybody needs a favour one day !

Some good advice

 

[Docscurlock]

Just to add further clarification the definition of immunity is: the ability of an organism to resist a particular infection or toxin by the action of specific antibodies or sensitised white blood cells.

And it relies on the fact that the antibodies will confer protection and CV19 doesn't mutate like the flu.

 

[Gregs24]

Your very first post in any of these threads was to sling mud at our President, who isn't in ICU BTW

Ahh - back to politics when the science runs out.

 

[Caballus]

Have some hospitals been overwhelmed? I've only heard people saying they will be, not that any actually have.

And the reason for establishing field hospitals, deploying the Mercy and Comfort within the US, and setting up shop in waiting rooms?

 

[Gregs24]

And it relies on the fact that the antibodies will confer protection and CV19 doesn't mutate like the flu.

Indeed - that applies whether the immunity has been achieved by vaccine or natural infection. Having said that as it mutates (if it mutates) the people infected post mutation will be immune to that new version of the virus. How much cross immunity there will be depends on the degree of mutation. Viruses also change in infectivity (R0) and in clinical potency with time.

 

[Gregs24]

Have some hospitals been overwhelmed? .

I missed that comment. Not sure in the US, but the intention in the UK is to always have some 'headroom' in medical facilities, so that all medical services (not just COVID cases) can continue. Not an easy one to judge and better safe than very sorry. When overwhelmed the collapse in care is catastrophic.

 

[Caballus]

https://www.hsj.co.uk/news/hospital...elmed-by-coronavirus-patients/7027189.article

 

[Hack]

Why try and hurry it up by expiring drowning in your own bodily fluids instead of a fiery mustang wreck.

Oh the fiery Mustang wreck will happen, don't you worry. The thing is - remember west nile? I live in an area with lots of mosquitos, and I still go outside. How about Limes disease? There are a lot of ticks where I live as well, but I don't hide from them.

It is an interesting dilemma you raise. I think the difference with COVID19 is the huge skew in the mortality rate in older people. An overall mortality rate of 0.66% is estimated but that really doesn't tell the whole story with figures as high as 20% being suggested for the over 80's. Whilst I understand the 'I choose if I get it and die' bit, unfortunately (or fortunately for you) you probably will not die but a few infections down the line somebody old will die as a result of you not isolating if that is what you chose to do.

A lot comes down to social responsibility and inevitably if you have older relatives it concentrates the mind. I would like to think we live in a considerate world where we all do our bit for society in general, everybody needs a favour one day !

My parents are older. They do what they want. I hope they don't die, but I'd rather they have the freedom to do what they want.

Social responsibility is a great Marxism.

And the reason for establishing field hospitals, deploying the Mercy and Comfort within the US, and setting up shop in waiting rooms?

Preparation just in case the worst happens. But AFAIK it hasn't happened yet in the first world. It probably happened in China, but no one's talking.

https://www.hsj.co.uk/news/hospital...elmed-by-coronavirus-patients/7027189.article

So there is a single hospital in a country with socialized medicine that WORRIED about being overwhelmed. But it didn't happen. They just got nervous because they saw a big increase happen quickly. Don't get me wrong, I don't blame them for being nervous.

 

[Gregs24]

My parents are older. They do what they want. I hope they don't die, but I'd rather they have the freedom to do what they want.

Social responsibility is a great Marxism.



.

Politics aside, I actually do care about my mother and I am sure you do about your parents. Our social responsibility is what distances us from the savages and dog eat dog animal world. Freedom doesn't exclude compassion.

 

[Hack]

Politics aside, I actually do care about my mother and I am sure you do about your parents. Our social responsibility is what distances us from the savages and dog eat dog animal world. Freedom doesn't exclude compassion.

I agree that freedom doesn't exclude compassion. Right now we don't have freedom. I understand why and maybe it's for the best (short term only), but hopefully we can get the freedom back very soon.

 

[Caballus]

So there is a single hospital in a country with socialized medicine that WORRIED about being overwhelmed. But it didn't happen. They just got nervous because they saw a big increase happen quickly. Don't get me wrong, I don't blame them for being nervous.

Single example, not single hospital. Plenty of reports of similar situations elsewhere. Regarding the Comfort and Mercy, if they were just in case, they would not be seeing patients and manning remote sites. To not acknowledge the overwhelming load being placed on our health care system, and particularly on our workers, is to disrespect the workers who are trying to communicate the system. That would be considered out of touch HHQ (higher headquarters) syndrome--not listening to the ground truth coming from the troops in the field.

Regarding going about life and worrying about the effects on oneself. That would be totally acceptable if no one else were affected. However, just as there are laws against speeding in a school zone, there are policies and restrictions designed to protect others from the irresponsible spread of this disease. How restrictive is too restrictive? That's up to society to say.

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