C8 just got crushed and humiliated by the GT500

[9secondko]

As I’ve said before, whether it is Z51 or not, the Stingray is not the track Corvette, so the GT500 should completely own it on the track. The Base GT500 is pretty much on par with the Z51 on the track and in the quarter mile. Slaughters it in the half mile, but the quarter mile they’re about even in the low 11s for the magazine tests. I know we’ve seen 10s in private owners hands, so there’s that. In the MT tests they actually had Stingray a bit ahead on the quarter.

The REAL track comparison comes when the Z06 is released. The Grand Sport or the Z06 should both be a solid match for the CFTP. For C7, Z06 was introduced first, then Grand Sport. GM is likely to follow that same release order for C8. The fact that Stingray hangs with the base GT500 on the track should actually be a pleasant surprise for Tadge and his crew. Or maybe not. Maybe it’s just me who didn’t think it would hang.

Left column is Stingray, middle is GT500, right is CFTP. Most of the numbers are not far off. So, basically, Stingray to GT500 is a pick ‘em, CFTP is better, especially on track and Z06 hasn’t gotten out of bed yet.

with all due respect, the base 500 compares to the base c8 and the cftp compares to z51.

When the z06 is out, there should be a higher tier 500 as well.

this isn’t “it” as far as the 500 goes any more than the c8.

a Fat car based on a 5 year old 4 seat platform beating any clean sheet mid engine Corvette is a legit win for a lowly pony car.

that said, even a ridiculously powerful and track specific KR has its work cut out for it with a z06 version of the c8. Its a platform made from the ground up to own the track. Yet... it’s no guarantee it beats the 500 either.

so let us Mustang boys enjoy the win at the moment, eh? Don’t be a grinch, eh?

LOL

We can revisit when the z06 c8 is a thing.


... in the laundromat doing the KRs laundry... ok. Sorry. I couldn’t help myself. Bad keyboard. Bad! BAD!

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[02gtnh]

Think about what your saying. They took the C8 and converted the suspension geometry to it's track configuration. They ran the base GT500 as-is. Both have the same tires. Which one has more of a track setup and why are you calling the base GT500 a track car when there is an actual track version?



And yet, the GT500 was in more of a street car configuration and was the more "street car" of the two.



Absolutely, on the street...the corvette has a massive advantage.

What I find funny is that we have no problem testing track times at the track, but for some reason testing 1/4 mile times is done on the street. I'm not saying it's invalid, but advantage will always go to mid engine and AWD configurations. Anyone who wants to race these legally is going to lean far more on actual drag-strip times and ET mph.



Again, pick-em depends. At actual real, legal racing facilities...the base GT500 is faster in all regards. Not a pick em unless you want to do 0-60 or 1/4 mile runs on the street.

With that said, I wouldn't fault anyone choosing a C8 over the base GT500. Totally different driving experiences.

And agreed on the pecking order.

On a side note, anyone else notice the high praise the GT500 gets for it's transmission and tuning vs the "meh" comments on the C8? Sounds like Ford definitely one-upped GM on it's trans tuning.

so the handling package for the gt500 is just for looks? Doesn’t it have adjustable suspension?

 

[JohnnyUtah]

Nice showing for the 500.

I guess I'm in the minority who isnt all that surprised with the results with such a massive HP advantage on a high speed course like VIR. Seems reasonable.

I'm really curious to see a ZLE head to head at this point. Given these results I would imagine the ZLE would slot somewhere between the base and the CFTP. Hopefully they'll do it.

 

[martinjlm]

I See edged out by 5 or 6 seconds. Talkin CFTP of course. That's a different zip code worth of distance. I don't think anyone gave the Mustang a chance when the C8 dropped. Suprise.

Oh, no doubt the Stingray doesn’t stand a chance on the track with a CFTP. That’s the Z06’s job. We just have to wait a year or so for that comparison. But the difference between the Stingray and the base GT500 is 1.28s. That’s not bad considering the Stingray isn’t a track car. When you line up the Stingray test numbers and the GT500 base numbers, they are pretty close. That’s why I say those two are a “pick ‘em”.

 

[millhouse]

Oh, no doubt the Stingray doesn’t stand a chance on the track with a CFTP. That’s the Z06’s job. We just have to wait a year or so for that comparison. But the difference between the Stingray and the base GT500 is 1.28s. That’s not bad considering the Stingray isn’t a track car. When you line up the Stingray test numbers and the GT500 base numbers, they are pretty close. That’s why I say those two are a “pick ‘em”.

So are you saying the base GT500 is a track car?

Again, it has the same tires...but didn't require a complete "track" chassis calibration like the C8. You didn't answer this previously...and I hope you see where I'm coming from.

The base GT500 is no more a track car than the ZL1 or the C8 vette.

I say this martin because you are justifying why the C8 lost as it's not a track car, yet....again, neither is the base GT500.

The 1.28 seconds may not have been bad if we were comparing the C8 to the GT500 track oriented carbon pack car...but we are not. These cars are similarly optioned with similar mild track packs. If we were comparing the SS to the GT, 1.28 seconds would be considered an ass whooping.

 

[9secondko]

So are you saying the base GT500 is a track car?

Again, it has the same tires...but didn't require a complete "track" chassis calibration like the C8.

The base is not the track car.
The cftp isn’t really either, just the based optimized for performance - like the z51.

did you catch what GM says to do in terms of camber for track duty? Whoa. It’s almost ridiculous. You do that to ANY car and it’s going to carve the track. But kill the tires. And look like it’s legs are broken. The 500 does it without looking ghetto and without cutting the tires life short.

The more that the 500?is exploited, the more appreciation it’s getting.

Also, judging by the numbers, “race car randy” didn’t push the 500 anywhere near its potential. both 0-60 and 1320 are significantly off. Not sure if they used him to get those numbers or if that was part of the C team’s testing. It is woeful.

he did max the c8s performance. So I’m guessing the 500 actually beats the c8 by quite a bit more. Even the base.

that’s likely the reason for slowly dribbling info. The c8 needs to sell and establish a rep. GM ain’t happy about this one. And their unofficial magazine pals can’t just run around shouting gt500 glory from the rooftops...

but if the Camaro went and beat a brand new Ford GT as they were both coming out of the factory, you’d probably find the magazine printed in the shape of the Camaro and title in Camaro branding font.

what the Gt500 is doing is crazy. There’s not much anyone can say to counter it other than to act like it’s somewhat normal and to try to sandbag a bit. Cant be too obvious about it, but going by the numbers, the 500 was sandbagged and still easily won.

 

[millhouse]

The base is not the track car.
The cftp isn’t really either, just the based optimized for performance - like the z51.

did you catch what GM says to do in terms of camber for track duty? Whoa. It’s almost ridiculous. You do that to ANY car and it’s going to carve the track. But kill the tires. And look like it’s legs are broken. The 500 does it without looking ghetto and without cutting the tires life short.

The more that the 500?is exploited, the more appreciation it’s getting.

Also, judging by the numbers, “race car randy” didn’t push the 500 anywhere near its potential. both 0-60 and 1320 are significantly off. Not sure if they used him to get those numbers or if that was part of the C team’s testing. It is woeful.

he did max the c8s performance. So I’m guessing the 500 actually beats the c8 by quite a bit more. Even the base.

I agree. Also, if you see what's involved with the chassis and suspension tweaks...it's quite a bit. Were not talking about a 10 minute change here. I'll see if I can find the link, but it would take a bit of time, some expertise and some extra alignment tools.

And yes, the camber they used would destroy the tires in short order.

As for the 0-60 and 1320, it doesn't matter. On the street...the C8 is going to kill the GT500. At the strip, the opposite will be true.

 

[martinjlm]

with all due respect, the base 500 compares to the base c8

Yup.

and the cftp compares to z51.

Not even close. More likely Z51 compares to base + handling package, which is exactly what Pobst tested. Came away with Z51 doing best in 0-60, 0-100-0, quarter mile, and slalom and GT500 + handling pack doing better on the track. The Stingray, with or without Z51, is track capable. Grand Sport and Z06 are track cars. Just like my SS is track capable and an SS 1LE is a track car.

When the z06 is out, there should be a higher tier 500 as well.

this isn’t “it” as far as the 500 goes any more than the c8.

a Fat car based on a 5 year old 4 seat platform beating any clean sheet mid engine Corvette is a legit win for a lowly pony car.

. So now the GT500 is a lowly pony car? Says who? You’ve never heard any such thing from me. And I’ll point out yet again, that Stingray Z51 tested better than GT500 + Handling in a number of areas. Personally, I like the GT500 and I think it’s a helluva car. I’m only even on this side of the world because it’s on my short list for next car in a couple years. But for a 495 hp Stingray to even be close to it in acceleration means that the Stingray is outperforming my expectations. A 265 hp disadvantage is a mother to overcome and Stingray Z51 does that.

that said, even a ridiculously powerful and track specific KR has its work cut out for it with a z06 version of the c8. Its a platform made from the ground up to own the track. Yet... it’s no guarantee it beats the 500 either.

so let us Mustang boys enjoy the win at the moment, eh? Don’t be a grinch, eh?

LOL

We can revisit when the z06 c8 is a thing.


... in the laundromat doing the KRs laundry... ok. Sorry. I couldn’t help myself. Bad keyboard. Bad! BAD!

You’d be amused to know that I’m on C6G making sure that even the diehards over there give both versions of GT500 it’s due. I think more than a few guys on this thread can vouch for that.

 

[9secondko]

Yup. Not even close. More likely Z51 compares to base + handling package, which is exactly what Pobst tested. Came away with Z51 doing best in 0-60, 0-100-0, quarter mile, and slalom and GT500 + handling pack doing better on the track. The Stingray, with or without Z51, is track capable. Grand Sport and Z06 are track cars. Just like my SS is track capable and an SS 1LE is a track car.

. So now the GT500 is a lowly pony car? Says who? You’ve never heard any such thing from me. And I’ll point out yet again, that Stingray Z51 tested better than GT500 + Handling in a number of areas. Personally, I like the GT500 and I think it’s a helluva car. I’m only even on this side of the world because it’s on my short list for next car in a couple years. But for a 495 hp Stingray to even be close to it in acceleration means that the Stingray is outperforming my expectations. A 265 hp disadvantage is a mother to overcome and Stingray Z51 does that.


You’d be amused to know that I’m on C6G making sure that even the diehards over there give both versions of GT500 it’s due. I think more than a few guys on this thread can vouch for that.

hotsepower disadvantage is made up in two things: weight and traction.

the vette being signifsnctly lighter helps one. The engine over the rear wheels helps the other.
Mid day about right as far as expectations.
DCT maximized the potential. Holy grail layout for track: check.

The pony car comment is referring to what the Mustang, Camaro, and challenger have been. That the Mustang is now beating the likes of a newfangled midengine vette is insane.

the c8 is doing what it looks like it should do on paper. But the 500 is not just exceeding expectations. It’s blowing people away.

you never need to defend yourself bro. We all know you’re a great guy with a wealth of legit knowledge and a healthy dose of realism. If you felt I was aiming or insinuating you said something, that’s not the case. You’ve earned a pristine rep here.

 

[martinjlm]

So are you saying the base GT500 is a track car?

Again, it has the same tires...but didn't require a complete "track" chassis calibration like the C8. You didn't answer this previously...and I hope you see where I'm coming from.

The base GT500 is no more a track car than the ZL1 or the C8 vette.

I say this martin because you are justifying why the C8 lost as it's not a track car, yet....again, neither is the base GT500.

The 1.28 seconds may not have been bad if we were comparing the C8 to the GT500 track oriented carbon pack car...but we are not. These cars are similarly optioned with similar mild track packs. If we were comparing the SS to the GT, 1.28 seconds would be considered an ass whooping.

You make a very good point. GT500 base and GT500 + handling probably fit best in the same “track capable” envelope that the C8 Stingray and the Camaro SS fit into, with the Grand Sport / Z06 and the SS 1LE being the “track focused versions” of each of those. I guess I was looking at GT500 / CFTP as a pair more in line with GT350 / GT350R....Track Car and Better Track Car. Similarly ZL1 and ZL1 1LE. Track Car and Better Track Car.

 

[martinjlm]

hotsepower disadvantage is made up in two things: weight and traction.

the vette being signifsnctly lighter helps one. The engine over the rear wheels helps the other.
Mid day about right as far as expectations.
DCT maximized the potential. Holy grail layout for track: check.

The pony car comment is referring to what the Mustang, Camaro, and challenger have been. That the Mustang is now beating the likes of a newfangled midengine vette is insane.

the c8 is doing what it looks like it should do on paper. But the 500 is not just exceeding expectations. It’s blowing people away.

I fully expected the mid-engine and lighter weight to make the Stingray a better performer than its horsepower ratings would deliver for a front engine car. But I expected the Stingray to be a mid 3s car and an 11.3 - 11.5s car and cost about $72k base price. It has exceeded all my expectations coming in sub 3s and 11.1 / 11.2 quarter with a $60k base (for now). It’s doing better than it should have on paper. And so is GT500. Good time to be a car guy.

 

[9secondko]

I fully expected the mid-engine and lighter weight to make the Stingray a better performer than its horsepower ratings would deliver for a front engine car. But I expected the Stingray to be a mid 3s car and an 11.3 - 11.5s car and cost about $72k base price. It has exceeded all my expectations coming in sub 3s and 11.1 / 11.2 quarter with a $60k base (for now). It’s doing better than it should have on paper. And so is GT500. Good time to be a car guy.

fair enough. The 0-60 is ripping it.

unbelievable time to be a car guy.

the 60s has nothing on this. Wow.

 

[DekiDoo]

Color me impressed that even the base GT500 bested the Z51 C8 on track. That's amazing.


And I see the C8 did better in acceleration tests, but that's a given with the engine lay out on a non prepped surface. That trap speed difference is huge. I'm honestly shocked even more that the CFTP is almost 4 seconds faster as well. Granted that's a track that favors power, but wow, that's impressive. Still a long ways off the ZLE lap time though, unless they ran a different configuration for this test.

 

[millhouse]

You make a very good point. GT500 base and GT500 + handling probably fit best in the same “track capable” envelope that the C8 Stingray and the Camaro SS fit into, with the Grand Sport / Z06 and the SS 1LE being the “track focused versions” of each of those. I guess I was looking at GT500 / CFTP as a pair more in line with GT350 / GT350R....Track Car and Better Track Car. Similarly ZL1 and ZL1 1LE. Track Car and Better Track Car.

I think the tires the manufacturer chooses to put on give a good indication of the cars intent. The GT350 previously wore MPSS and now sport cup 2's. Both (gt350 and gt350r) could be considered track cars as they both (now) come equipped with full compliments of cooling. That wasn't always the case though.

The ZL1, C8 and base GT500 all share similar compound tires (although I do believe the ZL1's tires are a bit superior for track duty). All 3 in my opinion are more street oriented...although at this point, all are also quite track capable.

From what I see, more Ford guys are considering this to be an ass whooping with similarly equipped (and priced) vehicles. Yes, the C8 took the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times, but we all know what each is truly capable of. The GM folks seem to see this as a moral victory. I personally don't get it, as both are similarly priced...but I'm probably on the Ford biased side a bit.

And for the record, I think the "track" tweaks GM did to the vehicle chassis and suspension is complete bullshit. Not many people are going to track these cars, and even less are going to spend the time trying to eff with the chassis to get it perfect for an individual track. You need to do a re-alignment in the pits after your done on the track...not going to be fun to do in the dark when the track is closed.

 

[martinjlm]

I think the tires the manufacturer chooses to put on give a good indication of the cars intent. The GT350 previously wore MPSS and now sport cup 2's. Both (gt350 and gt350r) could be considered track cars as they both (now) come equipped with full compliments of cooling. That wasn't always the case though.

The ZL1, C8 and base GT500 all share similar compound tires (although I do believe the ZL1's tires are a bit superior for track duty). All 3 in my opinion are more street oriented...although at this point, all are also quite track capable.

From what I see, more Ford guys are considering this to be an ass whooping with similarly equipped (and priced) vehicles. Yes, the C8 took the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times, but we all know what each is truly capable of. The GM folks seem to see this as a moral victory. I personally don't get it, as both are similarly priced...but I'm probably on the Ford biased side a bit.

And for the record, I think the "track" tweaks GM did to the vehicle chassis and suspension is complete bullshit. Not many people are going to track these cars, and even less are going to spend the time trying to eff with the chassis to get it perfect for an individual track. You need to do a re-alignment in the pits after your done on the track...not going to be fun to do in the dark when the track is closed.

Just commenting on the bold part, since I’m totally on board with the rest. I think the need for making the camber adjustment to get the most out of the Stingray on the track is a reason it should be considered track capable, not track focused. I expect Z06 / Grand Sport will be more aggressively calibrated and won’t need these types of adjustment. But I do think that those adjustments will still be available even in those cars. Even my car has a section in the owners manual that describes optimal settings for tracking the car. I just don’t bother to do it. Difference is, with my car, I’d have to take it to a garage or shop qualified to make the adjustments. With C8, the ability for the owner to adjust is built in. I’m not sure if the ZL1-1LE has owner adjustable suspension. If not, then C8 would be the first.

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