C8 just got crushed and humiliated by the GT500

[DekiDoo]

I don’t think that’s it. The 500 grips even on a regular ol asphalt street. A YouTube at the Nevada event took the car out on regular streets and ripped a 3.3 0-60. It’s more than just the surface. This 500 puts the power down. It’s a game. Changer as for as what mustangs are known for.

So you're saying they sand bagged the car on the acceleration tests but had it kick the c8 in the teeth on track? I'm gonna go with un-prepped surface. That GT500 is not running a 10.6 on the street. The C8, based on available traction is probably running close to its max on the street. I also dont think there would be a huge difference on the strip for the C8, even with a drag radial. The GT500 has been proven to be a mid 10 second car, the only difference is that this test wasn't done on a drag strip. And even with a 3.3 to 60, it's still a half a second behind the C8 and has to play catch up.

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[JohnnyUtah]

I don't think he was really saying it was unfair, because Motor Trend was very transparent about what they did. However, he pointed out that the C8 got a special track alignment. The GT500 didn't.

I'm a little surprised they didn't put some Cup 2s or racing slicks on the C8. The C8 might have made up the 3 or 4 seconds on the base GT500 that way.

They just gave it negative camber. Anyone who tracks cars does that to save their tires and maximize grip. I guess what I am saying is that is it is completely plausible that the Mustang had its track camber adjustment in place as well, whether it was spelled out in print or not. I wouldn't expect every detail of every setup point to be outlined. It wouldn't surprise me if both cars had non-stock brake fluid either. These are just common things that are changed for the track. Is bleeding the brakes when they feel spongy an issue too? To me that is just making sure your car is set up properly.

It's odd to me that no matter the outcome of a Motortrend test, the sentiment on this forum is that it wasnt fair or even. There are several posts about Randy sandbagging the 500 and now its the alignment. Both cars were tested to be faster than the Vette and they sang the praises of it and called it a supercar. This really seems biased towards Chevy to people? The same mag that chose the 350R over the ZL1 when it was slower?

At what point is it good enough for everyone?

 

[nametoshowothers]

Oh, no doubt the Stingray doesn’t stand a chance on the track with a CFTP. That’s the Z06’s job. We just have to wait a year or so for that comparison. But the difference between the Stingray and the base GT500 is 1.28s. That’s not bad considering the Stingray isn’t a track car. When you line up the Stingray test numbers and the GT500 base numbers, they are pretty close. That’s why I say those two are a “pick ‘em”.

So let me get this straight. The mid engine sports car that is now supposedly making ferrari and macleran shake in their booties is now not a track car. It is a drag car.

chevy announced the c8 as a revolution. Maybe it is for GM. But on the track (hint this is why you buy mid engine sports cars) when it gets utterly destroyed by fords drag car ( as ford markets it. The base gt500) The c8 is no longer a track car


So what is it? Is it the chance to have to coolest car in handicap parking at the retirement home - is that what the C8 is?

 

[Hack]

They just gave it negative camber. Anyone who tracks cars does that to save their tires and maximize grip. I guess what I am saying is that is it is completely plausible that the Mustang had its track camber adjustment in place as well, whether it was spelled out in print or not. I wouldn't expect every detail of every setup point to be outlined. It wouldn't surprise me if both cars had non-stock brake fluid either. These are just common things that are changed for the track. Is bleeding the brakes when they feel spongy an issue too? To me that is just making sure your car is set up properly.

It's odd to me that no matter the outcome of a Motortrend test, the sentiment on this forum is that it wasnt fair or even. There are several posts about Randy sandbagging the 500 and now its the alignment. Both cars were tested to be faster than the Vette and they sang the praises of it and called it a supercar. This really seems biased towards Chevy to people? The same mag that chose the 350R over the ZL1 when it was slower?

At what point is it good enough for everyone?

I never went away from a regular performance street alignment in my GT350 when I went to the track. I don't think your statement holds true. Maybe track day "pros" that run their car every weekend, use an enclosed trailer and have all the tools to flip back and forth between street and track alignment constantly do this, but I think most people who run a handful of track days per year just drive their car to the track and run it.

Heck, the track I go to is more than a 2 hour drive away. I wouldn't want to eat up my tires with a track alignment doing all that street driving. And I never had an extreme problem with tire wear at the track using a street alignment either.

Bleeding the brakes is completely different. That and changing fluids just make sense as part of regular maintenance on a car.

Did you see the photos of the C8 in track alignment? It looked ridiculous how much camber they had set.

Like I said before - not really questioning fairness due to the transparency. I would be interested to know how much faster the GT500 would be with a track alignment, though. Maybe the Mustang is that much better of a car that it really doesn't need as much camber added and it wouldn't respond to a track alignment like the C8 did.

 

[martinjlm]

So let me get this straight. The mid engine sports car that is now supposedly making ferrari and macleran shake in their booties is now not a track car. It is a drag car.

chevy announced the c8 as a revolution. Maybe it is for GM. But on the track (hint this is why you buy mid engine sports cars) when it gets utterly destroyed by fords drag car ( as ford markets it. The base gt500) The c8 is no longer a track car


So what is it? Is it the chance to have to coolest car in handicap parking at the retirement home - is that what the C8 is?

When GM introduced the C7 for 2014, it was one model. Stingray. There was an optional Z51 handling package that made it a decent car for the track, but not a top track car.
When GM introduced the C8 for 2020, it was one model. Stingray. There was an optional Z51 handling package that made it a decent car for the track, but not a top track car.

For 2015 they introduced another C7 model. Z06. It was a track beast beyond anything GM had released up until that point. Including the C6 ZR1. There was an optional Z07 handling package, similar in approach to a Camaro 1LE package.
For 2021 they are expected to introduce another C8 model. Z06. It will be a track beast beyond anything GM has released up until that point, possibly including the C7 ZR1. Expect it to introduce the 5.5L DOHC FPC derived from the C8.R. Expect it to sit at around 600 hp. Expect an optional Z07 handling package, similar in approach to a Camaro 1LE package.

For 2016 they introduced another C7 model. Grand Sport. Basically, the same wide body kit and all the performance handling goodies of the Z06, but with the Stingray engine. It was a track beast at a much more reasonable price than a Z06.
For 2022 they are expected to introduce another C8 model. Grand Sport. Basically the same wide body kit and all the performance handling goodies of the Z06, but with the Stingray's LT2 495 hp engine. It will be a track beast at a much more reasonable price than a Z06.

For 2019 they introduced another C7 model. ZR1. It was a supercar at a fraction of the price of cars it slaughtered on the track.
Somewhere in the 2023 - 25 timeframe they are expected to introduce another C8 model. Could be ZR1. Could be Zora. It will be a ridiculous over-the-top beast with hybrid system and e-awd and a combined output of 900 - 1,000 hp (remember the "frame-twisting" incident? That was this beast)

So if you follow the trend, a couple things are pretty clear. One....the 2020 Stingray is just the tip of the spear when it comes to C8 Corvettes. Two....it's a good time to be a Corvette fan.

 

[martinjlm]

I never went away from a regular performance street alignment in my GT350 when I went to the track. I don't think your statement holds true. Maybe track day "pros" that run their car every weekend, use an enclosed trailer and have all the tools to flip back and forth between street and track alignment constantly do this, but I think most people who run a handful of track days per year just drive their car to the track and run it.

Heck, the track I go to is more than a 2 hour drive away. I wouldn't want to eat up my tires with a track alignment doing all that street driving. And I never had an extreme problem with tire wear at the track using a street alignment either.

Bleeding the brakes is completely different. That and changing fluids just make sense as part of regular maintenance on a car.

Did you see the photos of the C8 in track alignment? It looked ridiculous how much camber they had set.

Like I said before - not really questioning fairness due to the transparency. I would be interested to know how much faster the GT500 would be with a track alignment, though. Maybe the Mustang is that much better of a car that it really doesn't need as much camber added and it wouldn't respond to a track alignment like the C8 did.

I don't think that a similar camber setting for GT500 will derive the same benefits as for Stingray. The underlying reason for the change in camber for Stingray is that the basic setup for the ME Stingray is intentionally setup with a dose of understeer dialed in. This is specifically done to keep weekend-warriors from spinning the car around it's axis. The more track oriented versions of C8 will have more aggressive suspension settings, assuming a more accomplished driver.

 

[nametoshowothers]

When GM introduced the C7 for 2014, it was one model. Stingray. There was an optional Z51 handling package that made it a decent car for the track, but not a top track car.
When GM introduced the C8 for 2020, it was one model. Stingray. There was an optional Z51 handling package that made it a decent car for the track, but not a top track car.

For 2015 they introduced another C7 model. Z06. It was a track beast beyond anything GM had released up until that point. Including the C6 ZR1. There was an optional Z07 handling package, similar in approach to a Camaro 1LE package.
For 2021 they are expected to introduce another C8 model. Z06. It will be a track beast beyond anything GM has released up until that point, possibly including the C7 ZR1. Expect it to introduce the 5.5L DOHC FPC derived from the C8.R. Expect it to sit at around 600 hp. Expect an optional Z07 handling package, similar in approach to a Camaro 1LE package.

For 2016 they introduced another C7 model. Grand Sport. Basically, the same wide body kit and all the performance handling goodies of the Z06, but with the Stingray engine. It was a track beast at a much more reasonable price than a Z06.
For 2022 they are expected to introduce another C8 model. Grand Sport. Basically the same wide body kit and all the performance handling goodies of the Z06, but with the Stingray's LT2 495 hp engine. It will be a track beast at a much more reasonable price than a Z06.

For 2019 they introduced another C7 model. ZR1. It was a supercar at a fraction of the price of cars it slaughtered on the track.
Somewhere in the 2023 - 25 timeframe they are expected to introduce another C8 model. Could be ZR1. Could be Zora. It will be a ridiculous over-the-top beast with hybrid system and e-awd and a combined output of 900 - 1,000 hp (remember the "frame-twisting" incident? That was this beast)

So if you follow the trend, a couple things are pretty clear. One....the 2020 Stingray is just the tip of the spear when it comes to C8 Corvettes. Two....it's a good time to be a Corvette fan.

Yes, i follow the trend, C8 is the grocery getter, better to come, understand. But Chevy fans can't have it both ways, greatest car ever (until slower than something else) and the greatest car to be coming in the near future -- just wait you will see (when it gets beat).

it is a good car, but not great, has potential, remains to be seen if the potential will be realized.

All kinds of prototypes from all kinds of companies never make it to the street, so it remains to be seen what GM can deliver, yes they can engineer it, but can they make money, something that GM actually needs to be better at (So does Ford). Will they miss the ball, like they did with this C8 and get the suspension tuning wrong --- who knows. All that we know now is that C8 Z51 is perfectly good to be parked in the handicap parking at the local grocery store and drag racing. Trunk big enough for a walker and golf bags.

 

[shogun32]

Did you see the photos of the C8 in track alignment? It looked ridiculous how much camber they had set.

I don't see anything silly in the pictures. The C8 in street alignment (-0.5deg camber, source) already has a front push issue because of the weight bias. Dialing in -3deg of negative camber is not unheard of. The pedestrian Mustang GT being flogged on the track will run -2.5 or thereabouts. The GT350 handbook calls for -2.2deg for track duty which is conservative IMO. You'll have to ask the resident track nuts if they go more for 2.5 or even higher.

Look at picture 26,29 vs 1,52. You can see they both of a decent amount of negative camber.

.

Like I said before - not really questioning fairness due to the transparency. I would be interested to know how much faster the GT500 would be with a track alignment, though.

I would too. But we don't know what camber the GT500 sisters were running and whether or not it was street (-1.1?) or track (-2.2?) configuration. GM makes swapping back and forth a trivial undertaking - 3 nuts, spin the top hat, tighten nuts.

MT (and probably all the other rags) do an inconsistent job of actually measuring and base-lining the cars under test so the reader has sufficient data.

 

[martinjlm]

Yes, i follow the trend, C8 is the grocery getter, better to come, understand. But Chevy fans can't have it both ways, greatest car ever (until slower than something else) and the greatest car to be coming in the near future -- just wait you will see (when it gets beat).

it is a good car, but not great, has potential, remains to be seen if the potential will be realized.

All kinds of prototypes from all kinds of companies never make it to the street, so it remains to be seen what GM can deliver, yes they can engineer it, but can they make money, something that GM actually needs to be better at (So does Ford). Will they miss the ball, like they did with this C8 and get the suspension tuning wrong --- who knows. All that we know now is that C8 Z51 is perfectly good to be parked in the handicap parking at the local grocery store and drag racing. Trunk big enough for a walker and golf bags.

It does everything it was intended to do. Actually more. It is faster than most (including me) expected. And I used to sit within paperball tossing distance of Tadge's office and attend his weekly meetings. It performs better on the track than the model it replaces (C7 Stingray Z51) and is a tick behind the next higher trim of C7 (Grand Sport). It is not the car that is intended to compete with GT500. I've been saying that here and on C6G for a long time. I was the guy in the room telling Tadge's team how their then upcoming car would compete with the intended competition. Stingray was not concerned with GT500. Other trims were. I'm just sayin'.

 

[shogun32]

Stingray was not concerned with GT500. Other trims were.

and yet it managed to best the base GT500 in almost all measurements and basically equal the CFTP trim to boot. Run the C8/Z51 with equivalent tires and wheels and we'll see just how "not it's competitor" it really is.

GM has a great car. And so does Ford. Nobody is buying one or the other because one pips the other on some minor measured performance item.

 

[martinjlm]

and yet it managed to best the base GT500 in almost all measurements and basically equal the CFTP trim to boot. Run the C8/Z51 with equivalent tires and wheels and we'll see just how "not it's competitor" it really is.

GM has a great car. And so does Ford. Nobody is buying one or the other because one pips the other on some minor measured performance item.

This, this, this....100 x this! I've been saying this on both forums.

 

[JohnnyUtah]

I never went away from a regular performance street alignment in my GT350 when I went to the track. I don't think your statement holds true. Maybe track day "pros" that run their car every weekend, use an enclosed trailer and have all the tools to flip back and forth between street and track alignment constantly do this, but I think most people who run a handful of track days per year just drive their car to the track and run it.

Heck, the track I go to is more than a 2 hour drive away. I wouldn't want to eat up my tires with a track alignment doing all that street driving. And I never had an extreme problem with tire wear at the track using a street alignment either.

Bleeding the brakes is completely different. That and changing fluids just make sense as part of regular maintenance on a car.

Did you see the photos of the C8 in track alignment? It looked ridiculous how much camber they had set.

Like I said before - not really questioning fairness due to the transparency. I would be interested to know how much faster the GT500 would be with a track alignment, though. Maybe the Mustang is that much better of a car that it really doesn't need as much camber added and it wouldn't respond to a track alignment like the C8 did.

I'm surprised that you wouldn't have issues with uneven wear on your sidewall without more negative camber.

I don't know anyone that changes their alignment before and after track days. Generally most people I know get their negative camber dialed in and just leave it. That's generally between -2 and -3. Nothing like those stupid stanced out cars run. I've never had problems with my interior edge wearing significantly quicker due that adjustment coupled with regular street use. The occasional track usage evens that out.

Like someone else said, you'll crush your tires on track quicker without it than the street use will wear them out. For me it's set it and forget it.

I just assume that the handling package on the 500 adds camber plates or something.

Either way think the 500s capability is just overwhelming the C8 Z51. It's obviously a beast.

 

[Hack]

I'm surprised that you wouldn't have issues with uneven wear on your sidewall without more negative camber.

I don't know anyone that changes their alignment before and after track days. Generally most people I know get their negative camber dialed in and just leave it. That's generally between -2 and -3. Nothing like those stupid stanced out cars run. I've never had problems with my interior edge wearing significantly quicker due that adjustment coupled with regular street use. The occasional track usage evens that out.

Like someone else said, you'll crush your tires on track quicker without it than the street use will wear them out. For me it's set it and forget it.

I just assume that the handling package on the 500 adds camber plates or something.

Either way think the 500s capability is just overwhelming the C8 Z51. It's obviously a beast.

Makes sense that the heavy wear is on track. I never tried a track alignment, so I don't know what would happen. I felt like I was decently quick on track, but I wasn't hammering the corners going in too fast under steering like crazy and scrubbing the outer edges off right away or anything like that. 99% of my driving was on the street - so that was my logic for using the street alignment.

 

[02gtnh]

Makes sense that the heavy wear is on track. I never tried a track alignment, so I don't know what would happen. I felt like I was decently quick on track, but I wasn't hammering the corners going in too fast under steering like crazy and scrubbing the outer edges off right away or anything like that. 99% of my driving was on the street - so that was my logic for using the street alignment.

What is the stock alignment for the 350 and 350R? Also since the gt500 is out, anyone know the base alignment and one with the handling package?

 

[shogun32]

What is the stock alignment for the 350 and 350R?

if you but go back 1 page to post 368

Also since the gt500 is out, anyone know the base alignment and one with the handling package?

page 48 of the GT500 supplement lays it all out and which I already cited above. It's page 37 in the GT350 supplement.

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