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Let's talk about the C8 vs the GT500

9secondko

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I'm fine with your definition of shift time not including the time it takes for the person to pull the paddle. However, IMO the definition you are using in this case seems somewhat arbitrary. Would you say that the DCT shifts faster than a manual transmission does? Does the shift time for a manual transmission include the time for a person to move the shift lever? Or would you say manual transmission shift time is infinite because the lever doesn't move by itself and you only want to include the things that take place automatically inside the transmission? Or is manual transmission shift time zero because there are no electronics in the mix (we are only timing the actions performed by electronics)?

If it were PURELY an illusion, it wouldn't impact lap times. If the car had electronics inside it that could read your mind and eliminate the need for you to pull on a paddle, my contention is that change would improve shift times even more (assuming the driver has the ability to optimize shift timing). I realize you would say it doesn't, but it would be a performance enhancer. Why even measure or consider how long a shift takes unless you are using the measurement to correlate with the car's performance?

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jake_zx2

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I'm fine with your definition of shift time not including the time it takes for the person to pull the paddle. However, IMO the definition you are using in this case seems somewhat arbitrary. Would you say that the DCT shifts faster than a manual transmission does? Does the shift time for a manual transmission include the time for a person to move the shift lever? Or would you say manual transmission shift time is infinite because the lever doesn't move by itself and you only want to include the things that take place automatically inside the transmission? Or is manual transmission shift time zero because there are no electronics in the mix (we are only timing the actions performed by electronics)?
Ulitmately, manual transmissions don't even HAVE a "shift speed"... there's not necessarily any minimum or maximum speed it takes to complete a shift, it's ALL dependent on driver input. A DCT is an automatic... the driver doesn't have any direct link to the transmission... the driver has the ability to override the decisions that the car makes for itself (in some cases), but the car is still performing the shift action completely on its own. Therefore, the shift speed is measurable because the car will shift regardless of driver input

There's a reason you've never seen manufacturers quoting shift times compared to the competition for manual cars

This is the reason you always hear people saying the DCT can "shift faster than any HUMAN"... key word there is human. Human input is the sole variable that determines shift speed on a manual, a DCT takes that out of the equation

If it were PURELY an illusion, it wouldn't impact lap times. If the car had electronics inside it that could read your mind and eliminate the need for you to pull on a paddle, my contention is that change would improve shift times even more (assuming the driver has the ability to optimize shift timing). I realize you would say it doesn't, but it would be a performance enhancer. Why even measure or consider how long a shift takes unless you are using the measurement to correlate with the car's performance?
But it WOULDN'T affect lap times, that's the thing. It perhaps allows more consistency due to the car reacting to driver input faster meaning less room for error, but adjusting the "grab point" for the paddle won't affect raw lap times whatsoever. It is not ACTUALLY a faster shift, it's simply the ILLUSION of a faster shift... much in the way that a stiffer suspension doesn't actually CREATE more grip, but gives the ILLUSION of more grip thus giving more confidence and consistency

The best way to look at this is if you were to take 2 of the same GT500, make one have the "speedy paddles" and the other have the same response as the paddles on a 10R80, but put both in auto shifting mode... which one would be faster? Neither would, because the shift speed is the same. The only thing that could make one car faster than the other is DRIVER INPUT
 

Hack

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Ulitmately, manual transmissions don't even HAVE a "shift speed"... there's not necessarily any minimum or maximum speed it takes to complete a shift, it's ALL dependent on driver input. A DCT is an automatic... the driver doesn't have any direct link to the transmission... the driver has the ability to override the decisions that the car makes for itself (in some cases), but the car is still performing the shift action completely on its own. Therefore, the shift speed is measurable because the car will shift regardless of driver input

There's a reason you've never seen manufacturers quoting shift times compared to the competition for manual cars

This is the reason you always hear people saying the DCT can "shift faster than any HUMAN"... key word there is human. Human input is the sole variable that determines shift speed on a manual, a DCT takes that out of the equation
I don't know how you can say a manual transmission doesn't have a shift speed and then say that a DCT is faster. Which is it?

But it WOULDN'T affect lap times, that's the thing. It perhaps allows more consistency due to the car reacting to driver input faster meaning less room for error, but adjusting the "grab point" for the paddle won't affect raw lap times whatsoever. It is not ACTUALLY a faster shift, it's simply the ILLUSION of a faster shift... much in the way that a stiffer suspension doesn't actually CREATE more grip, but gives the ILLUSION of more grip thus giving more confidence and consistency

The best way to look at this is if you were to take 2 of the same GT500, make one have the "speedy paddles" and the other have the same response as the paddles on a 10R80, but put both in auto shifting mode... which one would be faster? Neither would, because the shift speed is the same. The only thing that could make one car faster than the other is DRIVER INPUT
The reason people want to shift manually on a road course (other than for enjoyment), is to make sure the car is in the correct gear to apply power.

Being in the incorrect gear absolutely will impact lap times.

If you are running in automatic mode, I agree that a better driver interface doesn't impact shift times. But I believe that in general the DCT is going to be faster than an automatic, because the DCT has more than one gear available at the same time, whereas the automatic can only be in a single gear at a time.
 

shogun32

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Human input is the sole variable that determines shift speed on a manual, a DCT takes that out of the equation
No, you can't just jam a traditional manual into the next gear even if you try to break off the shifter. There is a minimum shift speed. Sequential transmissions are considerably faster than a traditional manual because of their design and how it engages the dogs, etc.

A DCT is a computer-shifted double-manual. The HUGE difference between the 2 manuals is that a DCT will have already selected the next gear and thus hidden the 'minimum shift speed' that was inherent in the traditional version. Now the 'shift speed' is a function of how fast one clutch pack is disengaged and the other one engaged. If the computer guessed "wrong" the shift will be longer than if it guessed "right" because it has to mechanically move the dog and adjust the shaft speed.
 

jake_zx2

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I don't know how you can say a manual transmission doesn't have a shift speed and then say that a DCT is faster. Which is it?
You're simplifying and misquoting. I said the DCT can shift faster than any human... that's factual. DCT shifts occur faster than human reaction time. It is physically impossible for a human to disengage a clutch, pull a lever, and reengage a clutch at the speed that a DCT shifts. The manual transmission itself isn't slower, because the transmission itself doesn't have a shift speed as it can't act alone. The DCT, however, can act alone and have a measurable shift speed

The reason people want to shift manually on a road course (other than for enjoyment), is to make sure the car is in the correct gear to apply power.

Being in the incorrect gear absolutely will impact lap times.
Sure, I can agree with that. But there are times that this simply isn't feasible... people usually post slower lap times with the 2018 Mustang auto in manual mode simply because they can't process the right gear for the given load as fast as the computer can. With a lot of modern cars, it's best (and fastest) to keep it in auto mode

.[/QUOTE]If you are running in automatic mode, I agree that a better driver interface doesn't impact shift times. But I believe that in general the DCT is going to be faster than an automatic, because the DCT has more than one gear available at the same time, whereas the automatic can only be in a single gear at a time.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but that purely comes down to shift speed, which is how fast the transmission itself can perform a gear change. You can overclock the paddles on a traditional auto and they'll feel faster, but in reality, the shift speed itself is the same. A DCT is typically going to be faster than an auto based solely on shift speed, but that's not really what we're discussing here
 

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jake_zx2

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No, you can't just jam a traditional manual into the next gear even if you try to break off the shifter. There is a minimum shift speed.
Okay, yes, but that threshold is typically beyond what humans can accomplish. I thought that would be implied

The point is that manuals don't have a SET consistent shift speed... the shift speed is solely dependent on who is operating it. The same does not apply to a DCT
 

millhouse

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Shift speed is simply how long the car takes to shift. It has nothing to do with user input, it is simply how long the mechanical process takes

If my fingers for some reason happen to move slower than yours and thus can't pull the paddle as quickly as you, would you say the shift speed in my CAR is reduced? No, you'd say I'm a slow shifter



Again, when the paddle engages has nothing to do with how long the transmission ACTUALLY takes to disengage first and engage second. That speed remains the same, regardless of when the paddle engages. As for the short throw shifter bit, a short throw doesn't allow the TRANSMISSION to shift any faster, it allows the USER to shift faster. I know there are some people who can shift faster with a stock shifter than me with a short throw, but I'm not going to go and say that their CAR is faster shifting

It is purely an illusion. User input isn't part of the system, it's a variable and is removed from this situation. regardless of who's driving, the shift speed will remain the same
OK, so it’s an illusion. I’ll program a 3 second delay between the shift paddle user input transmission output. Because it’s an illusion, the transmission will shift at the exact same time regardless. It’s not real. What was I thinking.
 

jake_zx2

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OK, so it’s an illusion. I’ll program a 3 second delay between the shift paddle user input transmission output. Because it’s an illusion, the transmission will shift at the exact same time regardless. It’s not real. What was I thinking.
Here's where you're getting confused; it won't shift at the exact same TIME, it'll shift at the exact same SPEED

You can put a 3 second delay on it, and yeah, if you try to hit the paddle at the same time as before, you'll probably be banging redline for a bit. But if you were to shift 3 seconds earlier, the car would accelerate at the EXACT same rate, because the shift SPEED is exactly the same
 

millhouse

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Here's where you're getting confused; it won't shift at the exact same TIME, it'll shift at the exact same SPEED

You can put a 3 second delay on it, and yeah, if you try to hit the paddle at the same time as before, you'll probably be banging redline for a bit. But if you were to shift 3 seconds earlier, the car would accelerate at the EXACT same rate, because the shift SPEED is exactly the same
So is that 3 second delay an illusion, or does it actually exist? Or do you just not understand what the word "illusion" means? The time after-all is measurable isn't it?
 

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Okay, yes, but that threshold is typically beyond what humans can accomplish. I thought that would be implied

The point is that manuals don't have a SET consistent shift speed... the shift speed is solely dependent on who is operating it. The same does not apply to a DCT
I think if you are going to say that manual transmission shift times vary based on who is using them, you should agree that DCT shift times will also vary. Some people are very quick to react and others not so much. Just like shifting a manual, there's variation from one person to another.

Unless you are saying that the manual transmission shift time is also an illusion?
 

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jake_zx2

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So is that 3 second delay an illusion, or does it actually exist? Or do you just not understand what the word "illusion" means? The time after-all is measurable isn't it?
That 3 second delay will give you the ILLUSION that the transmission itself is shifting at a lower speed... just as I have been saying since the beginning, that the overclocked paddles give the ILLUSION that the transmission is shifting FASTER

You really are a simpleton, aren't you
 

jake_zx2

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I think if you are going to say that manual transmission shift times vary based on who is using them, you should agree that DCT shift times will also vary. Some people are very quick to react and others not so much. Just like shifting a manual, there's variation from one person to another.

Unless you are saying that the manual transmission shift time is also an illusion?
The reaction times may vary, but the shift time itself won't. The time it takes from disengagement of the clutch to reengagement of the clutch will remain the same regardless of who is using it. That's why a DCT's shift speed is measurable
 

millhouse

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That 3 second delay will give you the ILLUSION that the transmission itself is shifting at a lower speed... just as I have been saying since the beginning, that the overclocked paddles give the ILLUSION that the transmission is shifting FASTER

You really are a simpleton, aren't you
You should go back and read my previous post. You obviously missed it.

The Paddles are part of the transmission...they are transmission controls just as a the stick in a manual transmission. All electronics inside and out of the transmission are part of it's controls. Because of this, any delay from the paddles are part of the controls as well. Anyone who knows what they are doing around a track will be faster using the paddles in manual mode. As good as the programming is, it's not going to be able to anticipate as well as a human.

You can argue this all day long, but that won't change the fact that you are incorrect.

On a side note, who's up for a group buy on a long throw shifter for the their manual transmissions? Your transmission won't shift any slower...Jake_zx2 promises.
 

millhouse

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Here is a good reads for you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_control_unit

But your right, all those fancy electronics inside and out of the transmission have no bearing on shift speed.

That brings up another idea. Again, for those interested I will be designing a shift paddle delay interface that delays your DCT from shifting by a full 5 seconds. Don't worry, this is just an illusion. It's not real. Once I have this one down, I will be working on an upgraded 10 second delay. Because Jake_zx2 says these shifters aren't part of the transmission, these delays don't really exist.

Oh, and I'll throw in that long throw sifter to boot.

OK, I'm done with this topic. Carry on.
 

jake_zx2

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Here is a good reads for you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_control_unit

But your right, all those fancy electronics inside and out of the transmission have no bearing on shift speed.
Fun fact; My automatic Focus also has a TCU... guess that means its a manual and therefore can't shift itself, huh? I guess now it requires me to shift it by myself and won't shift on its own... damn, I should've just saved some money and bought the manual
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