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Erik427

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I found this article on the Ford Probe, and found other similar articles describing how Ford wanted to morph the Mustang into a FWD car with either an inline 4 or V6 engine. But it then became a whole new car line called the Probe after Mustang enthusiast convinced Ford to keep the Mustang what it was.

I could not find anything saying a FWD Mustang was planned to have a V8 of any size. The whole concept of Ford neutering the Mustang into a FWD car with a 4 or 6 cylinder was because of high fuel costs at the time.

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2013/05/16/cars-of-futures-past-ford-probe/
Back then Ford spoke about the matter.......it was just a tad more than a book note.
It's a Great thing that the Powers at Ford back then didn't prevail.

It's time for the mod motor to be put to rest.....
I'd prefer that Ford opened up the bore spacing on the Coyote design.
If not, then the 7.3 will do just fine.
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Erik427

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It is common knowledge that Probe was almost Mustang. What indication is there that Probe was ever gonna have a V8? The reason Probe was almost Mustang was for CAFE reasons. In that era, none of the US car companies knew how to make a fuel efficient FWD V8. Transaxles were very limited as to the amount of torque you could put through them.
That's what the Mod Motor using only 281cid was for.
 

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Christ, this 2 person circle jerk is still going?
 
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Fatguy

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I guess you lost track of the logic sequences somewhere over the last 30 pages. It’s like this....you and your friend have been trying very hard to justify swapping a 7.3 into a modern mustang. Part of the justification was that the 5.0 coyote has all sorts of problems and just isn’t good enough. One of those problems, according to you, was that it is inherently displacement-limited due to it being designed and intended for FWD applications. You spent several pages explaining why you didn’t need to supply any proof of this statement. Finally, it was revealed that it wasn’t exactly true by another board member that linked to a source. But it didn’t stop there....it was then said that it was, in fact, designed to be a FWD engine and that it was intended to be used in the FWD mustang whose idea was later scrapped. Myself and others were watching this as it happened and no one seems to remember it happening quite this way. Some have looked for sources of this information to no avail.

This whole debate about whether or not the modular v8 was originally designed and intended for FWD applications could have ended many pages ago had anyone pushing these claims actually linked to a source.

But it also turned into two egos butting heads. It is what is is. But the history of the modular motor was a good thing to investigate on a Mustang board.


I’m off to Starbucks for a mocha with whipped cream on it!
 

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That's what the Mod Motor using only 281cid was for.
There was no transmission on earth at the time that would manage the torque through the front wheels. The only reason for making Probe-Stang front wheel drive was to get lower fuel consumption. As in without a V8.

Actually, I have to take that first part back. There was ONE transmission at that time that could have handled V8 torque. GM introduced the 4T80 transmission in the 1987 Cadillac Allante. It was the only transverse FWD transmission available at that time that could handle 200 hp / 250 lb-ft. And it was huge and heavy. Would not have worked in something the size of a Probe-Stang.
 

Erik427

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It’s become quite obvious that they’re just making stuff up as they go to try to build their case. Notice that they make bold statements, never want to be burdened with proof, never link to sources, downplay the challenges without any details, and most of their logic sequences are non-sequitur.
Why should we?
We lived what we're trying to tell everybody.
Sorry you cannot or refuse to accept this.

Let me ask you this, when you're talking to somebody in person and they state something.
Do you say link please?

We have no reason to lie......deal with it.
Enough proof has been given about the matter.

Every motor that's been shoved into a FWD Ford has rather small bore spacing.
This so the engine and transmission will fit.
Engine design is compromised for that purpose.
Why is that so hard to accept?

If the Mod Motor was designed for RWD applications only?
You can bet that the bore spacing would've been much greater.
Improved cooling.
Larger bore = Great valve spacing = better breathing.
Wider bearings for better durability = More hp.

The Coyote is based off of a old and failed design trend.
Time for a true update.
Either a new DOHC V-8 or the 7.3 Godzilla.

Personally I'd swap the 7.3 into a '05 - '09 S197 GT.
Just because I like the tail lights.
 

Erik427

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There was no transmission on earth at the time that would manage the torque through the front wheels. The only reason for making Probe-Stang front wheel drive was to get lower fuel consumption. As in without a V8.

Actually, I have to take that first part back. There was ONE transmission at that time that could have handled V8 torque. GM introduced the 4T80 transmission in the 1987 Cadillac Allante. It was the only transverse FWD transmission available at that time that could handle 200 hp / 250 lb-ft. And it was huge and heavy. Would not have worked in something the size of a Probe-Stang.
But GM still did it.
So did Ford with the Taurus 3.0 SHO.

You forgot about those.......
 

5.2 liters of democracy

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Why should we?
We lived what we're trying to tell everybody.
Sorry you cannot or refuse to accept this.

Let me ask you this, when you're talking to somebody in person and they state something.
Do you say link please?

We have no reason to lie......deal with it.
Enough proof has been given about the matter.
Would you readily believe someone you didn't know who is making statements which can't immediately be backed up by something you know to be fact? This is purely a yes or no question.
 

engineermike

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Why should we? We lived what we're trying to tell everybody. Sorry you cannot or refuse to accept this.
You're making some broad assumptions about everyone that disagrees with you. Perhaps the reason people are taking exception to your statements is that we lived it too, and don't remember it happening as you describe.

Let me ask you this, when you're talking to somebody in person and they state something. Do you say link please?
When someone tells me something that doesn't quite fit with other information I know to be true, I usually say something like, "Man, where are you getting this from?" Are you telling me you just believe everything anyone tells you without question?

... Every motor that's been shoved into a FWD Ford has rather small bore spacing. This so the engine and transmission will fit. Engine design is compromised for that purpose. Why is that so hard to accept?
It's hard to accept because myself and others have read plenty on the development of the modular v8 and coyote and never seen that stated by a reputable source.

Is it possible that they were trying to reduce the axial engine length to improve weight distribution of RWD vehicles? Without sources, this seems just as likely since F/R weight distribution has been improved dramatically on RWD cars and trucks over the last few decades. At this point, my theory could be just as valid as yours because neither of us supplied proof/links/sources. Maybe I'm wrong and you're right...I just don't have any reason to believe that right now.

If the Mod Motor was designed for RWD applications only?
No one has said that.

Larger bore = Great valve spacing = better breathing.
Oh, now breathing is important? You know what else lends itself to good breathing? 4 valves per cylinder! And, it's way more effective than increasing bore size of a 2 valve engine.
 

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Fatguy

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Guys - reality check here.


We are not testing some scientific theory that needs to be vetted by our pears before having any credence. We are bitching about stuff that happened during development of an engine about 28 years ago. And nothing that comes out of that discussion has any meanful result for anything else except for car enthusiasts swapping spit back and forth in a car enthusist forum.


I’ve had some rather novel ideas vetted by professors at important events and they never prattled about sources every two minutes.


Give it a rest for a while, step back, and see just how insignificant and trivial this whole discussion has been. Sure it has some cool information but nobody’s betting their home on any of the statements said here...
 

TexasRebel

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It is common knowledge that Probe was almost Mustang.
No. It's common knowledge that the sky is blue and falling hurts.

Nothing about what Ford may or may not have intended to do would fit the definition of "common knowledge". Please cite your sources.
 

TexasRebel

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But you do raise an interesting point. If there is no corraborating material from that time, how do you weigh statements from the past. I spent a week interviewing this WW2 D-Day vet for a show I ended up putting on CTV (Canada) and later into a movie. These end up eventually in Canada’s national archives along with all the raw footage. He made some statements that sort of flew in the face of what one thought of in those times. So now you can point to a source, and actually I’m the source as I controlled what could be used or got out there. But like I said they will get the full DVCAM interviews so I’m not hiding anything.
No. You are not the source in this scenario, but he is. It's up to you to vet him as a reliable source and convey those credentials to your audience to verify. By definition, the Primary Investigator (interviewer in this case) cannot be the source of information.
 
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No. You are not the source in this scenario, but he is. It's up to you to vet him as a reliable source and convey those credentials to your audience to verify. By definition, the Primary Investigator (interviewer in this case) cannot be the source of information.


Thanks for the education on journalism. I have much to learn...


Shit I forgot. Did you reply to engineermike on his question when you were talking about crate motors and connections? That matters if you know the answer! (Chrysler! Now I have to mention page numbers! It’s page 31.)
 

martinjlm

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No. It's common knowledge that the sky is blue and falling hurts.

Nothing about what Ford may or may not have intended to do would fit the definition of "common knowledge". Please cite your sources.
Certainly.

The second one is particularly interesting because it quotes a now retired Ford engineering executive who saw a GT version of the Probe-Stang and noticed that the hood profile would not support putting a V8 under the hood.

https://www.drivingline.com/article...ord-probe-the-mustang-replacement-that-wasnt/
https://www.hagerty.com/articles-videos/articles/2018/11/19/when-ford-almost-killed-the-mustang
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/1987-1988-1989-1990-1991-1992-1993-ford-mustang1.htm

Can you cite sources that said the Probe was ever going to have a V8?
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