How obtrusive is safe and smart?

[MaxHedrm]

On the matter of distraction by phone, it won't be the government "over-reaching".

http://www.telematicstalk.com/devel...-inception-program/?eid=284863486&bid=1987379

That actually sounds like some pretty sweet tech. I've seen cars on the road that should probably be telling their drivers something is wrong since so many people seem oblivious to things like a wheel that looks like it's about to come off.

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[Norm Peterson]

The g force questions really has nothing to do with the topic.

As far as real world experience- you're 100% right and missing your own point. I have real world experience with the 2018 S&S system. You don't. You shouldn't take my word for it- that would be ridiculous.

But you are trying to establish that what I have observed has no relevance, and that I can't hope to predict how I'll interpret something that's a little different. I disagree, having been through a couple of "little differents" already.


Of course the g-level matters, or at least it does if you can relate that number to your driving. In my book, 0.5g isn't much at all. But the insurance industry considers it "extreme". How can that not matter here, if, say, the AEB's threshhold is predicated on the average driver never using more than 0.5g?

Note - if the threshhold is either higher or lower than 0.5g and you can find that out, all you need to do is pass it on, as it's the information I care about.


Norm

 

[MaxHedrm]

Of course the g-level matters, or at least it does if you can relate that number to your driving. In my book, 0.5g isn't much at all. But the insurance industry considers it "extreme". How can that not matter here, if, say, the AEB's threshhold is predicated on the average driver never using more than 0.5g?

So you're referring to what the system might do if you are already braking. It's basically just an overboost of the power assisted brakes.

I think that's different than the component of the system that HeavyMetalMonk (corrected...ooops) is referring to. Obviously, I haven't gotten mine yet, so I don't know for sure, but in the Golf I had with the feature it was only engaged during something I would already consider an emergency stop. It was also good about letting up when I did. It wasn't some kind of line lock.

And sure, .5G might mean something to you and be something you'd want to adjust, but it would be meaningless to 99% of the drivers of the car.

 

[Norm Peterson]

The HUD warning is thrown based on speed and change in distance between you & the car in front of you. It's a warning, not an indicator of how hard you're braking. Unless you are referring to some sort of calculated Gs based on the deceleration of the car in front of you, which is probably sort of what it does, but for the vast majority of people that would not be a useful adjustment.

The numbers mean something to me because as a (now retired) engineer I've worked with numbers all my life. And I have datalogging capability, so I have a rough idea what 0.5g braking feels like (and how much harder I've gone beyond that - think double that from beyond 100 mph on the track and even that much doesn't ever evoke any sensation of panic. Not even if there's another car less than a couple of carlengths ahead of me during it all).

Knowing the number(s) would give me a little insight for how conservative or cautious the AEB calibration might be. Or at least how it might feel to me.


Norm

 

[MaxHedrm]

It's so easy for we old fellows to treat safety gadgets with disdain. We have much slower reactions than the youngsters and drive within our limitations.

The new drivers with a 460 bhp Mustang are easily distracted, as we were when that age, and a bit of help with safety might not be a bad thing.

Think of it this way, the safety gadgets can even help experienced drivers, especially when your reaction time is slower.

 

[MaxHedrm]

The numbers mean something to me because as a (now retired) engineer I've worked with numbers all my life. And I have datalogging capability, so I have a rough idea what 0.5g braking feels like (and how much harder I've gone beyond that - think double that on the track and even that much doesn't ever evoke any sensation of panic. Not even if there's another car less than a couple of carlengths ahead of me during it all).

Knowing the number(s) would give me a little insight for how conservative or cautious the AEB calibration might be. Or at least how it might feel to me.


Norm

Ahh. I was still thinking about your mention of adjusting it. Your just talking about so you can figure out how annoying it would be without driving it. That makes more sense.

And oops, I referred to you instead of HeavyMetalMonk above.

 

[HeavyMetalMonk]

But you are trying to establish that what I have observed has no relevance, and that I can't hope to predict how I'll interpret something that's a little different. I disagree, having been through a couple of "little differents" already.


Of course the g-level matters, or at least it does if you can relate that number to your driving. In my book, 0.5g isn't much at all. But the insurance industry considers it "extreme". How can that not matter here, if, say, the AEB's threshhold is predicated on the average driver never using more than 0.5g?

Note - if the threshhold is either higher or lower than 0.5g and you can find that out, all you need to do is pass it on, as it's the information I care about.


Norm

I still don't think you fully grasp what the system does, as I have no idea how g force relates to it.
If you have the system engaged (which is optional) and it senses you closing in on a car and you haven't started braking it will throw a red HUD on the windshield (optional) and make a sound (optional) and start engaging the brake (also optional).

 

[Norm Peterson]

Your just talking about so you can figure out how annoying it would be without driving it. That makes more sense.

Close. Very close. You have to start with what you do know that's at least somewhat similar, and from that you may be able to make a guess. But the more blanks you can get filled in, the better that guess is going to be. For me, one of the most important blanks is going to be its threshhold(s), because of things I know about myself that other people here probably can't truly understand because they aren't seeing them "from the inside".

And oops, I referred to you instead of HeavyMetalMonk above.

No problem, no harm done. I've got a rather thicker skin than my participation in threads about nannies probably suggests.

Just noticed your username, wasn't that painted on some low overhead parking garage clearance? ;)

Have one on me :cheers:


Norm

 

[MaxHedrm]

I still don't think you fully grasp what the system does, as I have no idea how g force relates to it.
If you have the system engaged (which is optional) and it senses you closing in on a car and you haven't started braking it will throw a red HUD on the windshield (optional) and make a sound (optional) and start engaging the brake (also optional).

I think he is referring to a different part of the feature (if it even exists on the Mustang version). When the driver initiates what the computer recognizes as a panic stop it will provide additional brake boost helping you stop even faster. In my experience in my Golf it's actually pretty slick and while I noticed it happen, it wasn't obtrusive. The Golf would also turn on the hazards when it occurred to warn drivers behind you. Then when you let up, all is back to normal (other than brake smell).

I can't find much on whether this capability is part of Ford's AEB system.

 

[HeavyMetalMonk]

I think he is referring to a different part of the feature (if it even exists on the Mustang version). When the driver initiates what the computer recognizes as a panic stop it will provide additional brake boost helping you stop even faster. In my experience in my Golf it's actually pretty slick and while I noticed it happen, it wasn't obtrusive. The Golf would also turn on the hazards when it occurred to warn drivers behind you. Then when you let up, all is back to normal (other than brake smell).

I can't find much on whether this capability is part of Ford's AEB system.

Yeah, that's not the system I'm talking about (well, to be more accurate it might be a different function of the same system). I *think* the 2018 does this, but I haven't experienced it (or maybe haven't noticed).

 

[Norm Peterson]

I still don't think you fully grasp what the system does, as I have no idea how g force relates to it.
If you have the system engaged (which is optional) and it senses you closing in on a car and you haven't started braking it will throw a red HUD on the windshield (optional) and make a sound (optional) and start engaging the brake (also optional).

From deceleration g-forces you can estimate the time for the remaining distance to close and the distance that will be covered. Or, working backward from the distance and velocity information coming from the sensors, what deceleration rate would be necessary and when it would need to be applied.

You can also relate g-force levels to what either most people or only a few people are comfortable using, and how badly do you want to scare the really gentle breakers with a relatively late hit of extremely hard braking.

Taking the second point a little further, the insurance industry seems to be settling on 0.3g braking as 'hard' and 0.5g as 'extreme', and they'd really prefer that their policyholders rarely or never hit either one. Toward the other extreme, among people with either road course or much autocross experience under their belt, 0.5g isn't hard enough to be worth a yawn. And the easy stops that almost everybody makes when there is no urgency to brake any harder . . . they're probably closer to 0.20g, maybe 0.25g (65 down to maybe 55 feet to stop from 20 mph, if that helps any).


Norm

 

[HeavyMetalMonk]

Okay... So you're real question is how much of a safety factor are they building in to the system and how much sooner is it braking than it truly needs to. Correct?

All I can say is on my test I would have normally started braking way before the system kicked in. Not particularly meaningful for anyone but me though.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Okay... So you're real question is how much of a safety factor are they building in to the system and how much sooner is it braking than it truly needs to. Correct?

That's about the size of it.

All I can say is on my test I would have normally started braking way before the system kicked in. Not particularly meaningful for anyone but me though.

Hopefully the same would be true for most people under most driving circumstances.

I'm not suggesting that I'd expect to always get caught by an AEB event, but I do know of a few situations where on occasion I might. Not all involve other traffic.


Just so you know, there's at least one automated braking system - the system name escapes me at the moment - that as fitted to 18-wheelers sometimes kicks in before a driver with many years of safe driving experience would, and has even been known to kick in when he wouldn't have needed to use the service brakes at all. From a trucking industry periodical (two family members drive CDL-A for a living these days).


Norm

 

[HeavyMetalMonk]

That's about the size of it.



Hopefully the same would be true for most people under most driving circumstances.

I'm not suggesting that I'd expect to always get caught by an AEB event, but I do know of a few situations where on occasion I might. Not all involve other traffic.


Just so you know, there's at least one automated braking system - the system name escapes me at the moment - that as fitted to 18-wheelers sometimes kicks in before a driver with many years of safe driving experience would, and has even been known to kick in when he wouldn't have needed to use the service brakes at all. From a trucking industry periodical (two family members drive CDL-A for a living these days).


Norm

Ok, I get what you're asking now. Based on the time mine kicked in (yeah I know, anecdotal and not scientific) I'd guess they didn't build in quite as much of a safety margin as you may expect from a system like this.
I'd also expect there's probably 5 people on the planet that can actually answer your question with authority and they all work at Ford ;)

 

[Norm Peterson]

Anecdotal is fine here. It was a real-world experience/observation. We're completely on the same page with respect to the driver's need to be paying attention. Full-time. It disgusts me every time I see any of those TV ads that essentially praise the AEB for what it can do without scolding the driver for abdicating his/her responsibility. Or for perhaps not having enough braking skill in the first place (you can't make your car outbrake a motor home? really?).


The more I know about something like this ahead of time, the better I'll be able to relate its intended behavior to my own driving and the better prepared I'll be to cope with it should it intervene. Even for systems whose intervention is generally benign, any incidental surprise factor may not be (BT, DT). A disabled car parked fully on the outside shoulder of a highway curve to the left comes to mind as a situation ripe for AEB surprise.

I'd also like to know if it returns control of the braking system back to the driver if he then gets on the brakes sufficiently hard, or if it is generally intended to drive your car straight into anti-lock and leave it there. And I wonder how well it would work with brake pads that have significantly higher mu, initial bite, and temperature resistance than typical OE (street) pads.


On edit, I would expect ACC to be able to cope with more than just minor accelerations and decelerations sensed in the car ahead, and I can't think of any reason why ACC would not use the same sensors as AEB. It would make sense for ACC to be able to hand control over to AEB if the situation suddenly warranted that much braking.


Norm

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