6MT vs Dual Clutch

[J_Maher_AMG]

F430's have a single clutch, not a DCT.

I probably shouldn't care, but it's a bit derogatory and inaccurate to call SMG, PDK, DCT,... transmissions "automatics" when they have all of the internal components of a manual transmission that is actuated by electronics, while an "automatic" transmission is a completely different design.

I guess almost all professional racing is with "automatics" then...

DCT's, PDK's, SMG's, torque converters, are all forms of automatic transmissions. Can they be often controlled by paddles? Yes absolutely, but if you can put them into a full "auto" mode where the driver need not do anything to shift gears, then it falls under the automatic category IMO.

Anything without a third pedal is an automatic, as they all automatically control the clutch packs/torque converters for you. It's just an old school belief that "automatic" means torque converter, when in reality all of the above are just sub categories falling under automatic transmissions.

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[Tank]

I remember these fights/long threads on the BMW forum about what to call them.

Isn't it wonderful we here in the Mustang6G-GT350 forum now get to experience the same thing...

 

[nastang87xx]

My car has 4 pedals. A gas pedal. A brake pedal. A clutch pedal. A dead pedal. Eat it, bitches!

 

[Steve68]

They're all just hot trannies.

 

[Mike02z]

Isn't it wonderful we here in the Mustang6G-GT350 forum now get to experience the same thing...

The guys on the Corvette forum are pretty bad too. A true american sports car yet 70% sell with automatics. Go figure

 

[Minn19]

Isn't it wonderful we here in the Mustang6G-GT350 forum now get to experience the same thing...

Sorry, at least we are not talking about trans/diff coolers. ;)

 

[Tank]

Sorry, at least we are not talking about trans/diff coolers. ;)

It's all good, no offense intended towards you [MENTION=24957]Minn19[/MENTION] :cheers: just saw an opening :lol:

 

[Norm Peterson]

I don't know the mechanics of it, but I believe it has the ability to coast in those situations. It's kind of odd from a start, you can feel the DCT riding/engaging the clutch like a manual so you can feather the throttle to get a smooth start. Once in a blue moon it would get jerky, but that was usually because of something I did. I drove it a lot in stop and go commuting and had no issues.

I liked the no creep unlike a traditional auto and the ability to feather the throttle to do what you suggested (not riding the brake pedal) in low speed situations. I hope that helps.

A little.

The closest I've got to driving a car with DCT is whatever was in an F430 and a Gallardo I got to sample in an autocross setting (a Father's Day gift). Biggest thing I remember about the clutch action was that they both felt a little 'soft' starting up from a full stop, even though I was going for more performance than you'd use in normal street driving but less than for a timed SCCA autocross run. All three of my current cars have a much more positive feel about their clutch engagement, which leads me to wonder if the programming for automated manuals in general involves more slip than I'm naturally inclined to use.


Norm

 

[Stuntman]

DCT's, PDK's, SMG's, torque converters, are all forms of automatic transmissions. Can they be often controlled by paddles? Yes absolutely, but if you can put them into a full "auto" mode where the driver need not do anything to shift gears, then it falls under the automatic category IMO.

Anything without a third pedal is an automatic, as they all automatically control the clutch packs/torque converters for you. It's just an old school belief that "automatic" means torque converter, when in reality all of the above are just sub categories falling under automatic transmissions.

Not sure I agree since those drivetrains are relatively new technology. A BMW's SMG was a hydraulically operated manual transmission down to the clutch and synchros. I think "semi-auto" is probably the best and most accurate classification for SMG/PDK/DCT transmissions.

A little.

The closest I've got to driving a car with DCT is whatever was in an F430 and a Gallardo I got to sample in an autocross setting (a Father's Day gift). Biggest thing I remember about the clutch action was that they both felt a little 'soft' starting up from a full stop, even though I was going for more performance than you'd use in normal street driving but less than for a timed SCCA autocross run. All three of my current cars have a much more positive feel about their clutch engagement, which leads me to wonder if the programming for automated manuals in general involves more slip than I'm naturally inclined to use.


Norm

F430s and early Gallardos used jerky SINGLE clutch "semi-auto" transmissions. This was pre-DCT technology and quite harsh. E46 M3s & E60 V10 M5s used these types of gearboxes. As you mentioned, this older technology also resulted in greatly increased clutch wear. Modern DCTs are far smoother but even BMW can't seem to get their tuning to the caliber of Ferrari/Porsche/McLaren, which drive like Automatics.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Why bother with a DCT when they've co-engineered a new 10 speed auto with GM? Torque converter autos are good enough now to rival DCT shifting without the cons of clunkiness and poor daily driving characteristics. The ZF 8 speed in my Hellcat is borderline perfect. That transmission is awesome!

Because it's still automated at heart, because it still wants to take over what I'd still greatly prefer to keep doing for myself. No amount of "adaptive learning" is ever going to make it fit properly, not when I might be driving with very little enthusiasm one moment and one hell-of-a-lot more the next.

More than likely still wants to creep when in gear and neither pedal is being pushed.

Google it and see how many manufacturers are using it today.

Because most people who buy automatics don't care how many speeds it has as long as it is smooth in its operation. For me, popularity among the buying public at large is far more likely to be a 'negative'.

There is no delay on upshifts or downshift to gripe about. Paddles are responsive and it Rev matches downshift. And I've heard the 10 speed is good too. Just listen to a video of the ZL1 shifting.

I'd have to find out for myself whether or not there's any delay (but I'm betting that I would notice a little, at least under some driving circumstances). Or shifting at different times/speeds than I would (I expect this to happen frequently, and this absolutely does bother me).

I have watched/heard a video featuring GM's version of the A10, a Corvette on a road course IIRC. I'll give you that it sounds as close to something I'd find acceptable when driven that hard (it's not a dead giveaway from the sound that the car is an automatic). It'd most likely be in easy driving where the things about AT's that do irritate me would show up and tip the scale. I'd be more likely to find it OK if you could get it in a full manual control version with the upshifting and downshifting accomplished at the floorshifter at least as + and - positions.


Norm

 

[VoodooThomas]

I consider DCT/PDK etc to be a third type of transmission since it's an automated manual. Newer traditional automatics have gotten better but still aren't on the same level as a dual clutch. Don't believe the marketing hype.

 

[Stuntman]

I must say that GMs automatic transmission shifting logic is quite good, however the response of the paddles to shifting up or down in a C7 Z51 or Z06 is frustratingly delayed compared to most DCT cars. Same goes for the Hellcats delayed response which is even worse. I do happen to like AMGs auto.atics with locking torque converters. They are far more responsive to inputs and are some of my favorite automatics. I haven't driven their DCTs yet.

 

[J_Maher_AMG]

Guys, there is no "third category", the manufacturers themselves refer to them as "Dual Clutch Automatics". Does the transmission automate the process of engaging the clutche(s) or torque converter? If yes, then it is an automatic. Whether it is a single clutch, dual clutch, torque converter etc., these are all just sub categories and types of automatic transmissions.

End of the day, they all have the ability to shift the transmission 100% on their own with no input from the driver other than throttle.

No clutch pedal, it's an automatic

 

[dron_jones]

Can we all at least agree that a CVT is the worst transmission of them all?:cheers:

 

[KiLLeR2001]

2 pedals = auto
3 pedals = manual

easy

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