Ford Racing ProCal Tune

[tittermary]

It is an interesting world.... although, it would be nice to have an experienced tuner jump in on this...

Not even sure I'm reading the below correctly, but there seems to be ongoing updates from Ford and other sites allude to opening up more and more areas to change. Others words, they don't have access to everything right away. I'm not pretending to know what I'm talking about... just did a google search because I was interested.

Maybe that is what FP has access to... all of the changes... not necessarily that a tuner can't see it, but maybe cobb/sct has not made it available via update?

One interesting convo:

http://www.cobbtuning.com/ford-updates-v400-maps-and-cobb-custom-features/

My only issue is that when a tuner says they "messed up" (his words, not mine) a couple of engines early on, that tells me that they don't have access or knowledge to everything. I appreciate the honesty though. Then you load something like FP and realize it drives like a different car and not a car that just had some power added and it makes you wonder.

lol, ford "messed" up engines too in development stage, it happens. The info and knowledge is there just depends if the tuner takes the time to learn it. the ford calibrators are not gods, just like any thing else some are good some are not.

I can give you many examples of were the ford calibrators screwed up. good example would be the number 8 cyl issue the early 5.0s had.

They tend to be on avg good at the drivability tuning, many tuners struggle here because they dont take the time.

again its not magic, its just tuning air/fuel, cam timing, ing timing, boost curves, tq managment, trans etc. it just depends on who is tuning not the access. There certainly are areas or features that lets say cobb might have figure out how to implement before they release adjustable to the tuners who use their applications

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[jtmat]

lol, ford "messed" up engines too in development stage, it happens. The info and knowledge is there just depends if the tuner takes the time to learn it. the ford calibrators are not gods, just like any thing else some are good some are not.

I can give you many examples of were the ford calibrators screwed up. good example would be the number 8 cyl issue the early 5.0s had.

They tend to be on avg good at the drivability tuning, many tuners struggle here because they dont take the time.

again its not magic, its just tuning air/fuel, cam timing, ing timing, boost curves, tq managment, trans etc. it just depends on who is tuning not the access. There certainly are areas or features that lets say cobb might have figure out how to implement before they release adjustable to the tuners who use their applications

Thanks for the adult reply... I actually learned something there.

What I've learned about turbo cars is through this forum and online... funny enough, learned a LOT by way of tune+ in the forums and in PM; he is an excellent source of info.

Tuning does look difficult, from the little knowledge that I've gained over the last couple of years. Not something you pickup in a weekend and become a semi-expert.

Thanks again....

Looking forward to my next trip since it will be a long one and fun... then report back on the Ford Performance tune.

 

[speedfrk]

so what in your mind what would an example of a table or "code" as you call it that couldn't be accessed by lets say cobb?

shit you can get a trans brake, flat foot shifting, adjustable traction control, a 2 step , on the fly map switching etc etc and as far as i know none of that is available with fords tune but anyway educate me on what the pro tuners can't access??

just a hint if there were any sections of code that couldn't be accessed then a flash from tune+ , cobb or lund or whomever wouldn't work gotta be able to access it to flash it

Ummm, the code that the head of Ford Performance said they have access to that other tuners don't. But, thanks for the hint. I do some IT consulting for an aerospace company and if I want to limit access to something on a server, I just lock it down. Be glad that stuff can be locked down.

It's all code that is being run on PCM's which are computers. Ford is nice to the tuners and opens up a lot of it but if they wanted to, they could lock it all down. How much they give others access to is up to them. Stuff gets hacked all the time like the Chrysler Jeep stuff, but the manufacturer just hardens it in the next update if they want to.

 

[tittermary]

Ummm, the code that the head of Ford Performance said they have access to that other tuners don't. But, thanks for the hint. I do some IT consulting for an aerospace company and if I want to limit access to something on a server, I just lock it down. Be glad that stuff can be locked down.

It's all code that is being run on PCM's which are computers. Ford is nice to the tuners and opens up a lot of it but if they wanted to, they could lock it all down. How much they give others access to is up to them. Stuff gets hacked all the time like the Chrysler Jeep stuff, but the manufacturer just hardens it in the next update if they want to.

ok, and i work in an industry that interfaces with all the oems on a daily basis moot point, people believe what the want. Again what is it that is so special that ford has locked down ? better yet look at what can be done with the different tuning options out there cobb, n-gauge - sct and share with me what's missing ? some ford dude says oh our stuff is better because we have "special access" pfft , ford is that last resource i would believe and that's based on first hand experience, i have seen the lies and hypocrisy.

At the end of the day it's the tuners skill, testing. and experience that's makes the tune.

 

[tittermary]

ok, and i work in an industry that interfaces with all the oems on a daily basis moot point, people believe what the want. Again what is it that is so special that ford has locked down ? better yet look at what can be done with the different tuning options out there cobb, n-gauge - sct and share with me what's missing ? some ford dude says oh our stuff is better because we have "special access" pfft , ford is that last resource i would believe and that's based on first hand experience, i have seen the lies and hypocrisy.

At the end of the day it's the tuners skill, testing. and experience that's makes the tune.

oh forgot one thing ford isn't being nice if they had their way they would lock everything down, but they can't by law which is enforced by the epa who carrys really big stick, how you think vw got jammed up?

 

[speedfrk]

ok, and i work in an industry that interfaces with all the oems on a daily basis moot point, people believe what the want. Again what is it that is so special that ford has locked down ? better yet look at what can be done with the different tuning options out there cobb, n-gauge - sct and share with me what's missing ? some ford dude says oh our stuff is better because we have "special access" pfft , ford is that last resource i would believe and that's based on first hand experience, i have seen the lies and hypocrisy.

At the end of the day it's the tuners skill, testing. and experience that's makes the tune.

You really believe that the tuners have access/control to all the same stuff in the pcm that Ford does? That's crazy talk. They certainly don't have access to Ford's test data which is what Ford uses to develop calibrations that meet their reliability/durability criteria. What's missing is long term reliability data from the independent tuners. Can the independent tuners get more power out of the engine than the Ford tune offers? Of course, but at what cost? If you're willing to roll the dice on that, fine but I'm not.

 

[Turbong]

You really believe that the tuners have access/control to all the same stuff in the pcm that Ford does? That's crazy talk. They certainly don't have access to Ford's test data which is what Ford uses to develop calibrations that meet their reliability/durability criteria. What's missing is long term reliability data from the independent tuners. Can the independent tuners get more power out of the engine than the Ford tune offers? Of course, but at what cost? If you're willing to roll the dice on that, fine but I'm not.

That's how I see it, It's not simple as "oh if your the best at tuning then it's all fine and dandy" tuning, programing is extremely difficult and it takes massive testing and trials to get it the bugs worked out and surely Ford knows more about it's own motor than any "genius tuner" out there its just facts. Now of course FP did not build the motor but it's a fact FP is an in house division and have access to all resources on the matter including the updated info on the RS version that everyone else simply doesn't have access to giving them the edge on development for sure. I always thought risking your 30k car in the hands of a tuner and hoping for the best with no warranty is insane, but to each their own.

 

[Chef jpd]

so, the TENS OF THOUSANDS of live datalogs the the pro tuners have used to create custom tunes for their customers are not valid?
FP is proud of their 60k miles of testing.This is a mere fraction of what is being done in the aftermarket. BTW, Ford wants an active aftermarket, it ehhances the brand.
This reminds me of the people that think that the "Company" has built the be all and end all of products, same ones that run 87 octane on a turbo and swear by it. Let's discuss the quality of the factory bypass valve........

 

[Witj85]

I wonder why ppl hate mustang owners... Seriously grow up ppl.

 

[Turbong]

so, the TENS OF THOUSANDS of live datalogs the the pro tuners have used to create custom tunes for their customers are not valid?
FP is proud of their 60k miles of testing.This is a mere fraction of what is being done in the aftermarket. BTW, Ford wants an active aftermarket, it ehhances the brand.
This reminds me of the people that think that the "Company" has built the be all and end all of products, same ones that run 87 octane on a turbo and swear by it. Let's discuss the quality of the factory bypass valve........

Those are different issues and different goals, Ford did not intend for the car to be a drag strip model it's suppose to be a balance of efficiency and performance. In terms of all the programming and development that goes into the PCM and motor yes, of course they have the edge they created the damn thing from scratch! That's not to say mistakes are not made or perfection but it sure the hell gives you a huge edge when all that data is available to you and perhaps they also had more time and I don't know a huge bank account? It's also possible they learned quite a bit from aftermarket tunes also and the fact they had a lot more time. In terms of the 60k test that is in fact a huge achievement and not piggy backing off someones possible misfortune, keep in mind tuners have to guess at some variables or maybe some are unknown, or maybe it was missed? These are all probabilities. FP has all the data, they know all the variables, they have the cash to properly test, they have to take all seasons into account. Especially when it's backed by their own warranty it speaks volumes of quality and certainty, it's common sense really.

 

[Chef jpd]

What does drag strip have to do with it?
FP has one canned tune. It does not take into consideration any of the intended uses for each individual owner.
Pro tuners can tailor you car to whatever you use it for and whatever mods you have and or are planning.

 

[tw557]

One concern I have about all the data logging is that is it mandatory to run safely. This does tell me that the tune can only adjust so much or maybe very little for changing conditions. I would prefer a tune that can self compensate even if not on the bleeding edge of performance.

 

[jbailer]

Who do you take the car back to if the tune screws up your car? At least, if I get the tuner installed from a dealer listed on FP site, I can take it back to them directly with no questions asked.

Not sure how it works through 3rd party. If they didn't install it, why would they take your business to fix an engine or tune issue?

That answer is easy, because they are being paid by Ford Performance. The question is, who does Ford Performance trust with it? It might have to go to a FP authorized dealer. The install and warranty registration CAN be done by an ASE certified tech though.

 

[Chef jpd]

One concern I have about all the data logging is that is it mandatory to run safely. This does tell me that the tune can only adjust so much or maybe very little for changing conditions. I would prefer a tune that can self compensate even if not on the bleeding edge of performance.

Tunes cannot self compensate, they are designed to do what they were programmed to do.
Datalogging is providing the tuner with the exact information that your car is providing and use that data to properly adjust your fuel, ignition and a myriad of other variables. This includes the quality of your fuel, your altitude, your intended use, and most important, any modifications you have made.
Canned tunes cannot compensate for these variables.

 

[jbailer]

I called FP...

1) Sound Symposer is turned off.

2) You still keep your 5/60 power train... unless tune related, which the guy fell short of saying impossible...

3) asked about this dealer, ASE or self install with "check-off" of dealer ASE. Basically warranty is only covered if dealer or ASE fully installed. Period... I asked a couple of times (different ways) and he did not move...

My take on warranty? This is all about relationships... what works for one person might not work for you. I have a relationship with my dealer, so they installed... hopefully they will take care of me. Good $200 spent, IMO.

If you have a relaionship with an ASE and can get the "check-off" and they will cover you if something goes wrong, go for it...

Just be careful.. if in doubt, get a dealer to install. I've had all Hondas before my stang so I have no relationship with Ford dealers. My situation is different than someone who has friends at dealerships or knows an ASE. Don't go cheap and screw yourself up on warranty listening to people who don't know but attempt to come off like their situation will work for everyone. Or someone who says "maybe" or "should"... in other words, they don't know.

LOL what did you expect the FP guy to say? He's not going to tell you it's ok to install it yourself and just have a ASE certified friend sign off on it and they will cover the warranty if anything goes wrong. There's a reason require an ASE certified technician to do the install. My point is the requirement is an ASE certified tech has to sign off on it. If you happen to know an ASE certified tech that is willing to do that, you can still get the warranty. Unless you're seriously dumb enough to tell FP you installed it yourself and just had an ASE tech sign off on it. In that case, you're putting your friend in a very bad position.

You keep spreading doubt about what other people say about warranties and technical information but it sounds like you don't know either. It's understandable that if you don't know anything you doubt what others are saying. That doesn't make it untrue. Some of it you just need to use common sense. Some of it, you have to know from experience but best of all you can read the warranty yourself.

The ASE tech is NOT the one that is covering you if something goes wrong. It is FP. You're trying to give people advice on warranties and your move was incredibly naive. You have a relationship with your dealer so they did the install? They did the install because you PAID them to. It's an extremely basic procedure. Then you say, "hopefully they will take care of me." You didn't even get a commitment from them to take care of any issues.

The Ford Dealer is NOT Ford and they are NOT Ford Performance. They are an authorized Ford agent and will do work if they are paid, they aren't doing work for free for anyone. The dealer is an authorized agent for repair and is the first line of inspection and opinion to Ford but Ford has the ultimate say if something will be covered under the factory warranty. The dealer can certainly influence that in how they report to Ford. Once you install any mods that can be attributed to failure, Ford is not going to cover the warranty if they know that to be the case. FP would have to cover it if the warranty was registered properly and if FP is covering the cost, the dealer will happily do the work.

This isn't speculation, if you don't believe me, open your warranty up and actually read it for yourself. Now I'm not saying that your dealer won't help you. It's always possible when they report the engine damage, they omit the part about the Ford Performance tune being installed and it looks like a routine warranty coverage. But if Ford says they aren't covering it, I don't care what you were told, it's not in writing and the dealer isn't going to do the work and provide the parts for free.

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