Limp Mode on the Track

[Hack]

Can you specify what you mean by warranty claim? Do you mean a failure due to heat from not being equipped with the factory cooler, failure of the aftermarket cooler allowing heat to damage the trans, or failure of the cooler directly causing damage to the trans?

If yes to any of the above, I doubt any of that would be covered under warranty anyway as failures on a racetrack would be cause for warranty denial regardless if it was timed or not because you wouldn't be able to prove it wasn't. Likewise you could also simply say you weren't on a racetrack to begin with and the dealer wouldn't be able to prove otherwise either, in which case the aftermarket coolers wouldn't really matter anyway.

My assumption would be that you would leave Ford's "limp" programming in place, so heat failure would not be a concern. However, there could be another failure based on your engineering of the system, or the failure could be completely unrelated and Ford gives you grief about having put an aftermarket cooler on the transmission and denies you warranty coverage. I'm not trying to insult your ability to design a system; I just tend to be a risk averse type of person and I feel there are a lot of things I, for one, don't know.

Here's a go; it's not really an FMEA, but just some risks I can think of off the top of my head. If I were designing a system for cooling the transmission, I would be worried about:

• Ending up with too much or not enough fluid in the transmission due to the lines and cooler being higher or lower than the transmission. This could happen when the pump is on, or when it is off, or all the time. It strikes me as being more challenging to get the proper fluid level with the additional parts in place.
• The flow of fluid in or out of the transmission interrupting the designed circulation of oil inside the transmission
• The cooler making the transmission run too cold during street miles and causing a shift harshness problem
• Same issue causing premature wear of transmission internals
• Heck, if I designed the system I would even have some worry about a line coming off or melting on the track and causing me to spin out. Adequate care should prevent this, but heck, I'm a worrier.

Not saying it can't be done, but I would want to design a solution and install it on 10 cars and drive them around in various conditions for 50,000 miles and then rip them apart and examine the pieces to make sure the solution functions properly. That isn't possible for me to do, obviously. That's why I'm really hoping I can buy something from Ford.

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[CANTWN4LSN]

My assumption would be that you would leave Ford's "limp" programming in place, so heat failure would not be a concern. However, there could be another failure based on your engineering of the system, or the failure could be completely unrelated and Ford gives you grief about having put an aftermarket cooler on the transmission and denies you warranty coverage. I'm not trying to insult your ability to design a system; I just tend to be a risk averse type of person and I feel there are a lot of things I, for one, don't know.

Here's a go; it's not really an FMEA, but just some risks I can think of off the top of my head. If I were designing a system for cooling the transmission, I would be worried about:

• Ending up with too much or not enough fluid in the transmission due to the lines and cooler being higher or lower than the transmission. This could happen when the pump is on, or when it is off, or all the time. It strikes me as being more challenging to get the proper fluid level with the additional parts in place.
• The flow of fluid in or out of the transmission interrupting the designed circulation of oil inside the transmission
• The cooler making the transmission run too cold during street miles and causing a shift harshness problem
• Same issue causing premature wear of transmission internals

Not saying it can't be done, but I would want to design a solution and install it on 10 cars and drive them around in various conditions for 50,000 miles and then rip them apart and examine the pieces to make sure the solution functions properly. That isn't possible for me to do, obviously. That's why I'm really hoping I can buy something from Ford.

A 2017 GT350.:lol:

 

[Hack]

A 2017 GT350.:lol:

That's a good one!

 

[CANTWN4LSN]

That's a good one!

I'm so glad you took that the right way. Sometimes on here it seems like we're discussing life and death issues. Love the comments with humor.

 

[Crashspeeder]

I'm due to pick up my '16 soon and I'm hoping we'll hear of some parts (preferably from FP) to rectify the situation. I'm okay with paying for them, I just want to be able to track my car. Some of the guys at work are looking to set up a track day this year and I'd love to join in without my car limping, especially since my Audi S5 performed flawlessly (stock) when I took it out to Watkins Glen. The GT350 should be able to do the same.

Am I annoyed that the '17 will offer more customization and have the cooling and strut tower brace standard? Yes. Am I expecting Ford to foot the bill? No. We paid less for our cars as '15s and '16s than the '17s will be. What does annoy me is what I'm hearing about the transmission not being able to add a cooler. Like I said, hopefully FP will release a kit so we can join in the track fun.

 

[CSL]

On another site there is info about heat shielding half the cats (tranny side) which sit right next to the tranny. The product is called Muffler Armor. The heat exposure and transfer from the cats has to be huge. This could be an effective, low cost option. The OP over there is going to test it out soon and report back. Keep an eye out......fingers crossed.

 

[montreal ponies]

Just found out that since my car has now a VIN i cannot cancel my '16 order, which is a bummer as i wanted to get a base '17.

My only hope is if the dealer wants to keep my '16 in inventory and sell it to someone else. Will talk to the sales manager on Monday.

If not, well i'm hoping we hear good news from Ford as i wouldn't mind paying
for whatever fix will be available .

 

[snaproll]

Excuse us. We have to keep reminding ourselves that you are the BEST track driver in the world! You are the one that is hilarious.

Ha - I never said or implied anything about being good or even lucky. But thanks. The thing about tracking mustangs - or any other car I suppose - is that it takes awhile to figure out what works and what doesn't. The learning curve costs a lot of money. I am always interested in the experience of another track rat and thankful if I can learn a lesson the easy way. Sorry of I'm trying to shortcut that curve for you.

Seems to me there is a lot of concern here over something that really shouldn't be a big worry imho. I can just see someone wanting to swap out a trans because they read it would be better on the Interweb. That would a huge waste I think. 98% of these cars are NOT going to the track anyway. I'm just trying to keep your blood pressure in check. Your GT350 is fine.

 

[Crashspeeder]

Ha - I never said or implied anything about being good or even lucky. But thanks. The thing about tracking mustangs - or any other car I suppose - is that it takes awhile to figure out what works and what doesn't. The learning curve costs a lot of money. I am always interested in the experience of another track rat and thankful if I can learn a lesson the easy way. Sorry of I'm trying to shortcut that curve for you.

Seems to me there is a lot of concern here over something that really shouldn't be a big worry imho. I can just see someone wanting to swap out a trans because they read it would be better on the Interweb. That would a huge waste I think. 98% of these cars are going to the track anyway. I'm just trying to keep your blood pressure in check. Your GT350 is fine.

If somebody's willing to swap out the transmission before even taking the car on the track they have more money than sense. I, for one, will be tracking the car annually, preferably more often. There are other options out there and I think we just want to make people well aware of what those options are.

As was already mentioned, there's a thread on SVTPerformance that suggests Muffler Armor as a possible solution, shielding half of each cat with it to keep the heat away from the transmission. This might be enough for those of us who won't be doing any serious track time, just some HPDE with 20-30 minute runs. Another possibility is a transmission cooler air scoop, though this may require some modification.

Hell, together these two mods might be more than enough, and for $220 total, I can't complain. A stock Tech Package GT350 is not "fine" if you plan to go to the track, however. It's "fine" if it's your daily driver or your weekend car and will never see track time, which may very well be most GT350 owners. I don't fall into that category, though, so I'll do my homework and hope others can shine some light on their findings as well.

 

[wilkinda65]

I guess since I'm in no hurry I'll enjoy my Limited Edition longer and wait for the 2017.


Sent from my iPhone6 using Tapatalk

 

[snaproll]

If somebody's willing to swap out the transmission before even taking the car on the track they have more money than sense. I, for one, will be tracking the car annually, preferably more often. There are other options out there and I think we just want to make people well aware of what those options are.

As was already mentioned, there's a thread on SVTPerformance that suggests Muffler Armor as a possible solution, shielding half of each cat with it to keep the heat away from the transmission. This might be enough for those of us who won't be doing any serious track time, just some HPDE with 20-30 minute runs. Another possibility is a transmission cooler air scoop, though this may require some modification.

Hell, together these two mods might be more than enough, and for $220 total, I can't complain. A stock Tech Package GT350 is not "fine" if you plan to go to the track, however. It's "fine" if it's your daily driver or your weekend car and will never see track time, which may very well be most GT350 owners. I don't fall into that category, though, so I'll do my homework and hope others can shine some light on their findings as well.

I would not hesitate to take a stock car to the track. In fact, if anyone would like to hit the upcoming NASA Road Atlanta event or Sebring events, I would be happy to meet you there and hang out, offer up any help you may need if you are new to the track thing. NASA is a great group of folks in general. We could probably have a cooler installed on Saturday night if it proved necessary. Or at least have a plan after looking at the car. Probably 25% of the GT350's are within 250 miles of RA and Sebring so bring it out.

I agree that doing the easy tweeks first makes sense. Any heat shielding could help. I use the reflective adhesive stuff on my floor or else the exhaust cools my heels.

 

[Bossing]

Do the 3/26 Sebring hpde by PDG.

 

[Caballus]

You mention the Autobahn - I find it strange you would be concerned about highway performance even without coolers on a tech package - that's not an issue. Typically a highway (even a 140 mph+ one like the Autobahn) does not experience repeated full threshold braking, heel/toe shifting and full high rpm turn after turn for sustained 20-30 minute sessions multiple times during a full day event. Highways and tracks have nothing in common as far as stress on a vehicle. You could do 100 autobahn runs on the same set of tires. You would be lucky to get 8 track days out of a set of tires - some will go through them much faster.

Also I have a question. How many technology package cars have hit the track here?

Good points and good question, Rogue. WRT the Autobahn, you are probably right, but my concern is based on two things. First, the manual, when referring to the Base and Tech, states, "For sustained high speeds or track day use..." The "sustained high speeds" portion of that statement naturally brings to mind the Autobahn. Second, I contacted FP and asked about this specific thing, and they said "We can't be sure. The transmission might overheat under those conditions." Certainly, I will put it to the test to see before casting final judgement, but I can't help but feel a bit misled when I have to worry about a car of this calibre possibly overheating on the Autobahn. It's crazy to me. Again, it probably won't, but there should be no probably with the GT350, given how it has been presented.

Regarding the track, I do not plan to do full day sessions or anything that I would expect would warrant a cooler. So, I asked about that too, and specifically referenced the Nürburgring. The answer was the same. We can't be sure that it can make a full lap without powering down after "10-20 minutes". That's FP talking. Like the Autobahn, it probably can, and I will test it plenty to see if it can, but probably is not what I expected from this car.

I started a thread about the GT350 v. the Hellcat, where a lot of us trash talked and bantered back and forth. Good fun. Although I stuck up for the HC, I had no doubt at the time that the GT350 was a better track car than the Hellcat. I now question that assumption when it comes base/tech for more than 10-20 minutes. Same goes for the folks I work with who have a base GT500, M3, and 911. All can handle the track with base models. For that matter, so could my old stock 325i. Again, I'm not talking all day sessions, but I am talking more than 20 minutes.

As for your question on how many tech packs hit the track there, I'm not even almost in a position to answer. What I do know is that because the deliveries didn't really begin in earnest until this winter, many are either stored or being driven conservatively. Yet, despite that, three have already run into heating problems. Nonetheless, I take your point that three is a small sampling. However, consider the point that many have made here: only a small percentage of base and tech owners will ever track their cars (speculation). If that is true, then three may be a worthwhile sample, especially when you add to it that it's still winter. As for most not intending to track, it doesn't matter. Any product should be capable of doing what it was marketed to do, whether it's a rifle that shoots to a thousand meters or a car that is supposed to be as good on the track as it is on the road...

My position is that Ford built an expectation that they failed to meet. Like many others, I don't expect free coolers. Where I respectfully differ, however, is that I don't think I should have to spend one more red cent to make the car meet the expectations that Ford built through it's marketing campaign. What does that mean? I believe that there is likely a solution short of coolers that will ensure the car can perform on the track for more than "10-20 minutes (FP's stated time limit, not mine)" and sustain high speeds without the transmission overheating. I also believe that Ford is responsible for making whatever modifications are required to achieve that capability, at no cost to the consumer. Anything beyond that (such as coolers) should cost the consumer, but should also be made available by Ford since they recommended them. Will it happen? I'll reserve judgement for now. Finally, I believe in compromise, but I don't believe compromise means paying more for what you were led to believe you were buying in the first place.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I did my homework prior to purchasing the car, which was before their statements were buried in an owners manual. I've gone back and researched again, and my position remains the same. Ford's marketing approach and the information made available was misleading. It is what it is, and whatever happens happens. But if they don't rectify it in some way, I will lose total respect for them and see it as just another rip off. Sad, given the symbolism of this car--Mustang. However, it's about principle and integrity--two words that still mean something to me as an American.

Plenty disagree, and that's their business, especially on a forum. However, most who cast stones have no dog in the fight.

 

[zombiekiller]

so i hit the track this morning. about 78 degrees, 50% humidity.

I had the same issues as others. after 17 minutes the first time, 18 minutes the second time. about an hour in between runs.

I was NOT pushing the car hard at all. Fast pace for nasa racers is anywhere from 1:44 to about 2:04 depending on conditions.

The advanced group was running about a 2:02. (GT3 cup, gt3 rses, some pasta) super fast guys can push into the low to mid 1:50s at this track in miatas and s2000s.

The viper ACR guys get into the mid 1:40s

My average time was right at 2:15.

My car has 307 miles on it as i type this. The car didn't "die", but it was significantly down on power. i'd call it "parade lap power" .

I bagged it after two tries, wiped the car down and walked around cars and coffee.

So, the car is going to be sitting at my dealer for the next week for them to correct the rear bumper alignment anyway. I'll have them pull logs and send them to ford.

I can't say that I'm surprised, or that it is the worst thing in the world, but i'm pretty disappointed.

It gets a LOT hotter down here in the summer time with about 100% humidity. I'd venture a guess that I'll barely make it 10-11 minutes if I'm really pushing , trying to get as close as i can to 2:00. I think if the car doesnt overheat and pull power, I can absolutely drive it into the 1:50s.

Edit: For reference, I have turned a 2:01 in my garage neighbors full track prepped gt3 before, the second time that i drove it. I am not newbish. the track rat that i just sold was a gutted e46 m3.

I do not expect my tech car to run like the m3 or the gt3, but i do expect it to be able to turn more that 8 laps without pulling power at a semi-leisurely pace.

blah.

At least it sounded awesome!

Edit: I did not take trans temp, of dif temp. I do not have an nguage, i did not bring a thermometer with me. engine oil temp was completely fine, as was coolant temp. the hood gets amazingly hot though!

 

[TRACK CRAZY GT350]

Good points and good question, Rogue. WRT the Autobahn, you are probably right, but my concern is based on two things. First, the manual, when referring to the Base and Tech, states, "For sustained high speeds or track day use..." The "sustained high speeds" portion of that statement naturally brings to mind the Autobahn. Second, I contacted FP and asked about this specific thing, and they said "We can't be sure. The transmission might overheat under those conditions." Certainly, I will put it to the test to see before casting final judgement, but I can't help but feel a bit misled when I have to worry about a car of this calibre possibly overheating on the Autobahn. It's crazy to me. Again, it probably won't, but there should be no probably with the GT350, given how it has been presented.

Regarding the track, I do not plan to do full day sessions or anything that I would expect would warrant a cooler. So, I asked about that too, and specifically referenced the Nürburgring. The answer was the same. We can't be sure that it can make a full lap without powering down after "10-20 minutes". That's FP talking. Like the Autobahn, it probably can, and I will test it plenty to see if it can, but probably is not what I expected from this car.

I started a thread about the GT350 v. the Hellcat, where a lot of us trash talked and bantered back and forth. Good fun. Although I stuck up for the HC, I had no doubt at the time that the GT350 was a better track car than the Hellcat. I now question that assumption when it comes base/tech for more than 10-20 minutes. Same goes for the folks I work with who have a base GT500, M3, and 911. All can handle the track with base models. For that matter, so could my old stock 325i. Again, I'm not talking all day sessions, but I am talking more than 20 minutes.

As for your question on how many tech packs hit the track there, I'm not even almost in a position to answer. What I do know is that because the deliveries didn't really begin in earnest until this winter, many are either stored or being driven conservatively. Yet, despite that, three have already run into heating problems. Nonetheless, I take your point that three is a small sampling. However, consider the point that many have made here: only a small percentage of base and tech owners will ever track their cars (speculation). If that is true, then three may be a worthwhile sample, especially when you add to it that it's still winter. As for most not intending to track, it doesn't matter. Any product should be capable of doing what it was marketed to do, whether it's a rifle that shoots to a thousand meters or a car that is supposed to be as good on the track as it is on the road...

My position is that Ford built an expectation that they failed to meet. Like many others, I don't expect free coolers. Where I respectfully differ, however, is that I don't think I should have to spend one more red cent to make the car meet the expectations that Ford built through it's marketing campaign. What does that mean? I believe that there is likely a solution short of coolers that will ensure the car can perform on the track for more than "10-20 minutes (FP's stated time limit, not mine)" and sustain high speeds without the transmission overheating. I also believe that Ford is responsible for making whatever modifications are required to achieve that capability, at no cost to the consumer. Anything beyond that (such as coolers) should cost the consumer, but should also be made available by Ford since they recommended them. Will it happen? I'll reserve judgement for now. Finally, I believe in compromise, but I don't believe compromise means paying more for what you were led to believe you were buying in the first place.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I did my homework prior to purchasing the car, which was before their statements were buried in an owners manual. I've gone back and researched again, and my position remains the same. Ford's marketing approach and the information made available was misleading. It is what it is, and whatever happens happens. But if they don't rectify it in some way, I will lose total respect for them and see it as just another rip off. Sad, given the symbolism of this car--Mustang. However, it's about principle and integrity--two words that still mean something to me as an American.

Plenty disagree, and that's their business, especially on a forum. However, most who cast stones have no dog in the fight.

Wow! What a post. Excellent Excellent. Thank you! :clap2:

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