Should I ditch my P1X for Whipple/VMP?..

[Torinate]

My experience is a little different than some of the opinions.

For me, i've had the gamut of blowers and a turbo to boot. NOTHING is near as much fun on a daily driver than a PD blower. I'm not talking the 850 plus HP, just your typical 700 whp daily. Sure, traction can be an issue at times, but the feeling far out weighs that. I found centris a little boring on the street to be honest. Especially two fold for manual car. Now, for a strip oriented car where it spends a pile of time at the track, nothing can beat a centri with a giant stall. Have that puppy on full send and keep it in the RPM range where boost is on full rip and let it eat. That car with the giant stall isn't a typical daily driver though. Sure, you can drive it on the street, but I wouldn't daily it.

Turbos can both the best and worst of each.

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[beefcake]

drivability should be good, unless you have 1 of the original kits that had the maf in the intercooler, those did have some issues, but you can buy parts to move to the tube and that will clear that up

all the kits can make the same power, so that isn't a reason to swap

 

[SSG 5.0]

I have the maf in the IC and not one issue at all. Although I’m not pushing big boy horsepower.

 

[ProChargerTECH]

I’m experiencing a lot of bucking. Having great customer service but still the problem persists. MAF has been moved into a 10” tube.

Even with the MAF in the intercooler, you shouldn't have any bucking.
(Even less that its been moved)

The reason I know this, I had your EXACT kit on my personal daily driver... that I drove from KS to CA, and virtually all over the country. MAF in intercooler (until CARMAX offered me so much money for the car it was silly to say "no" lol)... my car was the car CARB used for emissions testing actually.

The #1 reason I see coyotes "buck" no matter the power adder..... Is there are about (4) switches that have to do with TQ, Throttle, and reaction to folks movement on the pedal. If the incorrect combination of these switches is flipped.... they can buck, idle like crap, or start like a 1969 Corvette with a terrible carburetor. (Or any combo of those items).

100% if everything is mechanically sound, the buck can be solved in the tune.



NOTE: I had a ProCharged Mustang come to me the other day (from a previous tuner) and it was nearly undrivable due to the bucking. I seriously looked like I couldn't drive a stick.... I flipped (1) single switch in the ECU, and it was instantly cured.

 

[KKell83]

Here's another thing to consider with the Procharger vs. PD. It has been my experience that the Centri cars ON THE SREET, are faster and safer than the PD cars. Here's why...

The linear nature of the power delivery from the Centri is much more predictable and manageable. Everyone likes the feeling of that low down grunt that a PD blower provides, but the issue is that it makes so much torque down low, that you cannot put the power down. No matter what kind of tire you have. Sure, going sideways is fun, until it isn't.

Another issue that I don't think people focus on enough, is that all that torque that a PD makes even at very low RPM, is very hard on the bottom end of your motor, as well as the transmission, differential, axles, driveshaft, etc. Most people are adding forced induction to these cars without building the bottom end and drivetrain to properly to manage all of the extra force.

These Coyotes and their high reving nature are a perfect match for a Centri. Just my .02.

I would agree with this statement. My 2011 Mustang gt with a Roush ~low 600hp, had that punch but like you said, spinning is fun until it isn’t. I knew I wanted a centri this time around for the extra top end feel (my 3v with a Paxton felt really good), but knowing that Whipple has their 3.0L and VMP their 2650, I figured I’d ask since they’re both supposed to do better in the higher register as well as being a draw-thru setup might be easier to tune and get driving characteristics spot on.

 

[KKell83]

I'll second this but with a caveat. PD blowers for the street are fine, UP TO A CERTAIN POINT. When you start to greatly exceed the traction capabilities, the instantaneous torque becomes not just problematic, it becomes counterproductive and in some cases, dangerous.

If you're going BIG BIG power (4 digits or higher) the drawbacks of the PD setup, particularly on a manual become severe. Without some way to modulate the power, it then becomes a very esoteric exercise within the tune itself to manage throttle angle (vs pedal position commanded). There are some pretty smart guys on here who could probably layout how the PCM is able to modulate PD torque production through air load and throttle angle (regardless of what you're commanding with your foot) but my experience is that's almost pie/sky as most tuners just aren't going to take that level of time/knowledge into the tune.

A centri not only delivers the torque differently, but you can manage the torque via blowoff and other mechanical means.

Throw in the god awful bypass actuation on PDs and above a certain level, on the street it becomes a bit of a beast. You don't ALWAYS want to go from asleep to rage instantly. Centri at bigger power will be a little more manageable.

If you're below say 850 wheel, then PD's are just fine and actually preferable from some standpoints.

Most of the thread is about the drawbacks of a blow through setup with MAF signal/CMCV or IMRC complexities and driveability tuning, and under certain power levels I think PD blowers suffer less from that sorta stuff. But over a certain power level, you deal with bypass slamming shut and big changes to the air load with minor adjustments in throttle angle (it gets REAL touchy).

Nice write up! And I agree all around. I found this to be the same way with my turbo’d 3v as far as going from ‘asleep to awake’ and not having an electric boost by gear it wasn’t always friendly in the turns.

 

[KKell83]

What is this a 3V forum. 2015+ mustangs have IMRC, thats what ford calls it and thats what it is. lol

It is?! Jeez. Haha

 

[KKell83]

My experience is a little different than some of the opinions.

For me, i've had the gamut of blowers and a turbo to boot. NOTHING is near as much fun on a daily driver than a PD blower. I'm not talking the 850 plus HP, just your typical 700 whp daily. Sure, traction can be an issue at times, but the feeling far out weighs that. I found centris a little boring on the street to be honest. Especially two fold for manual car. Now, for a strip oriented car where it spends a pile of time at the track, nothing can beat a centri with a giant stall. Have that puppy on full send and keep it in the RPM range where boost is on full rip and let it eat. That car with the giant stall isn't a typical daily driver though. Sure, you can drive it on the street, but I wouldn't daily it.

Turbos can both the best and worst of each.

Appreciate that! I would tack on that a centri isn’t so bad if the gearing is right… Example, my friend as a P1x on his 2016 Mustang with a GT350 manifold and 3.31’s (manual car) in the low 600s and yes it’s bland until 6k comes around. Again he has a good combo for freeway pulls

 

[KKell83]

drivability should be good, unless you have 1 of the original kits that had the maf in the intercooler, those did have some issues, but you can buy parts to move to the tube and that will clear that up

all the kits can make the same power, so that isn't a reason to swap

Thanks Beef. And yes, my kit originally came with the MAF in the intercooler and have then moved it. That’s where it’s having some issues (at least with this current tuner).

 

[KKell83]

Even with the MAF in the intercooler, you shouldn't have any bucking.
(Even less that its been moved)

The reason I know this, I had your EXACT kit on my personal daily driver... that I drove from KS to CA, and virtually all over the country. MAF in intercooler (until CARMAX offered me so much money for the car it was silly to say "no" lol)... my car was the car CARB used for emissions testing actually.

The #1 reason I see coyotes "buck" no matter the power adder..... Is there are about (4) switches that have to do with TQ, Throttle, and reaction to folks movement on the pedal. If the incorrect combination of these switches is flipped.... they can buck, idle like crap, or start like a 1969 Corvette with a terrible carburetor. (Or any combo of those items).

100% if everything is mechanically sound, the buck can be solved in the tune.



NOTE: I had a ProCharged Mustang come to me the other day (from a previous tuner) and it was nearly undrivable due to the bucking. I seriously looked like I couldn't drive a stick.... I flipped (1) single switch in the ECU, and it was instantly cured.

Awesome to know!!

I know hands down it’s a tuning thing since the tuner prior made everything sound but I’ve been dealing with another tuner (he’s trying pretty hard) and just can’t get it straightened out. I may just have to suck up my loss ($$) and go with someone else.

 

[KKell83]

I appreciate everyone’s messages. I’ll keep the Procharger and make sure I find someone who can tune it for is lovely glory.

 

[SolarFlare]

I’ve had the maf in the ic for the last 6 years. I don’t have any issues. If I move it to the pipe I lose the capability to spray meth. But I wouldn’t be against trying it

 

[80FoxCoupe]

I've ran IC mounted maf and now in piping. No issues with either.

 

[KKell83]

So I received my newest revision and he must have done something since even idle it’s not a mess - no longer revs to 1500, down to 800, up to 1200, down to 900 until it stabilizes. Now it starts and sits around 1200 for 90 seconds (still a long time if you ask me but I do have long tubes so it’s loud). I’ll be driving it after work to see. He mentioned something about cleaning the TB table after 20%…

 

[jayman33]

Oh, interesting! What made you change? So you had a P1X?.. what made you chose Wengerd Performance vs Lund again? Go ahead and IM me if it’s sensitive info.

So my car bucks with and without CC set,
and even with a slight load; it almost feels like the throttle is applied then taken off throttle, on throttle off throttle. Anywhere within the rpm’s and worse when there’s hills. It’s just not enjoyable cruising. Mind you, this wasn’t always the case - I’m working with my IMRCs since a certain tuner suggestions it.

does it buck at part throttle driving? Say, 1500-2500 rpm?

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