ZL1 1LE

[68fbjjz109]

In the pictures below I think I see the missing structural metal between the B & C pillars in the Camaro that the Pill was referring to.

I have very poorly outlined in green the area of the interior chassis of the Camaro that has no metal and where you can see the exterior body panel. The red line points to the interior and exterior views of the hip crease.

The Mustang and Chally do not have such a gaping hole in their interior metal.

What this actually proves is something that is beyond my engineering knowledge, but I can reasonably conclude that it means that Mustangs Rock and Camaros Suck.

The last sentence made me laugh. Yes, this is part of what the Pill was talking about. The Mustang and Challenger have no access to the Body side outer panel like the Camaro. However that area is not structural load path in the way a engine bay rail, roof bow, rocker panel ect is. You need a boxed section for it to be truly considered structural.

The Mustang and Challenger have and enclosed cavity which is not the same thing.

However you can have form, shape, thickness, layering, and proximity of structural features to each other do have an effect on the over all structure. But not like dedicated structural features.

There is a few things about the Mustangs roof bow, B and C Pillar structure, specifically their close proximity to the wheel house which makes it advantageous. However the Camaro's approach it's not a glaring flaw, I would argue the Camaro internal C ring structure aids in the lack of C Pillar structure the Mustang has.

Sponsored

 

[thePill]

The last sentence made me laugh. Yes, this is part of what the Pill was talking about. The Mustang and Challenger have no access to the Body side outer panel like the Camaro. However that area is not structural load path in the way a engine bay rail, roof bow, rocker panel ect is. You need a boxed section for it to be truly considered structural.

The Mustang and Challenger have and enclosed cavity which is not the same thing.

However you can have form, shape, thickness, layering, and proximity of structural features to each other do have an effect on the over all structure. But not like dedicated structural features.

There is a few things about the Mustangs roof bow, B and C Pillar structure, specifically their close proximity to the wheel house which makes it advantageous. However the Camaro's approach it's not a glaring flaw, I would argue the Camaro internal C ring structure aids in the lack of C Pillar structure the Mustang has.

Please consider that even though this missing metal seems less important, it's only to the naked eye. Once you compare the Camaro's version of the Alpha to any other uni-body car, there are indeed many areas missing. As thePill acquires more evidence, I'm sure he will provide them here. Understand that this is the ONLY picture Chevy will make available and it is LARGELY due to compromises made between the ATS to CTS then back down to the Camaro.

Also, the area Chevy decided to remove this metal from is in fact an area that experiences heavy load under acceleration AND corning. Stress fractures occurred in vehicles in the 80's that practice led this very method of design.

Remember, deletion IS NOT engineering. Unfortunately, a lot of what was the 6th Gen Camaro initially was just merely deletion.

 

[Nanashii]

You cant get a 1LE for under 40 unless GM is running one of their 20% off sales.

A local dealer has one listed for $37.4k which will end up under $40k OTD. Another local dealer has sold 50 or so of them in the $38-$40k range. The SS 1LE is the best bang for the buck out there at the moment. I am curious to see where the 18 GT will end up price-wise with all the new options which are supposed to close the performance gap.

So... Where were you trying to go with this again..? ;)

Here is the truly sad part.

I'll sum it up here.
If you camaro ball swingers love and praise the camaro so much why are you all on a mustang forum? Don't tell me it's because your car enthusiast, because most of you don't even have a camaro or mustang. Your internet/ magazine trash talk bullshiters. It amazes me how much you support the camaro on this forum and as soon as a mustang lover (because this is a MUSTANG forum) disagrees with your opinion you get defensive and start putting a person down because they don't agree with your opinion. Thepill is entitled to his opinion and post more so than you camaro nut hangers because as I said this is a mustang forum. I know damn well the camaro guys on the camaro forums have guys that support the mustang and I'm pretty sure those that love the camaro forum over there give that mustang guy shit also. After all, the mustang is the BETTER CAR!
The camaro is NOT the only car out there. Woopie shit GM just put a supercharger on a camaro and they still haven't bested the last gt500 that was 4+ years ago. If it wasn't for Ford you GM guys wouldn't have a zl1! That goes for the hellcat also. The gt500 is where it started at. Thank ford for that dipshits!

I'm ok with the fact that I paid $5000 over sticker for my 2016 GT350 track pack. What I'm not happy with was the long wait, scratched ott stripes, two broken front bumper taps on the core support, both rocker panel trim pieces gouged, small door ding on passenger side door, deep sand scratches on the rear bumper cover under the clear coat, and a scratched center arm rest. All of which I replaced out of my pocket because my dad owns a body shop and I don't trust dealerships. An I'm also a mechanic. If I could of chosen another car off the lot I would of walked away from the one I currently have. But that's not the case. But now it's better then new and I'm happy.

I just wish the quality was better for their number one car.

Yes.
It's not literally falling off but you could see the tabs through the gaps.
On my car I refused to take it back to the dealer. But I did call and bitch at ford when I received my car and also wrote a long email. The only response I received back was take it back to the dealer and have it fixed. But since my family owns a body shop I did all the repairs myself and out of my own pocket.
I replaced my front bumper cover because the two tabs that hold it to the core support were not aligned to the pins that align it to the core support. Basically the carbon pins were under the tabs and the asshole on the assembly line just screwed it down and it broke two tabs off. So I replaced the bumper cover.

The rear bumper cover had the famous gaps everyone has but also had a ton of dust in the paint and also heavy sand scratches under the clear coat and also metallic sag. I replaced this bumper cover also.

Both rocker panel ground effects had big gouges in them directly below the mirrors. I replaced both of those.

The passager side door had a small door ding in it directly below the mirror but it was under the paint.

The hood had a tiny outward dent near the hood vent about the size of a pencil eraser. This dent was covered by the inner reinforcement so it was definitely there before the hood was assembled.

The hood had a pencil eraser sized paint chip on the front left corner near the headlight that the factory touched up with a brush that looked like shit.

The left rear 1/4 panel at the wheel well opening had a pencil eraser sized outward dent at the 12 o'clock position.

The center console lid had a 3" long scratch in the leather/vinyl.

The passenger interior door panel had a small scuff mark in the vinyl right on the edge.

Left front tire had a finish nail in the tire.

The hood ott stripes were marred.

The rear bumper cover ott stripes were not even straight. The license plate area was center, but the ones above that were 1/2" to the left. It was very obvious.

I fixed and paid for all the replacement parts out of pocket. In all I probably have over $5500 bucks in parts alone. This was my choice. Some might say I'm over reacting and it's not a $200000.00 car which is true, but why is it that my 2013 transit connect work van, 2013 fusion, 2011 f150 fx2, 2016 f150 sport all cost at least 1/2 the price of my gt350 and all had way better workmanship. I'm not sure I'll ever buy another mustang again. Often times I thought about just selling my car. But now after I fixed everything ford didn't care about I'm pleased with it. For $64000 you'd think they would give each car the "show car care". What a joke!

I want to have some of what he is having.

:eyebulge::hail:

 

[Childs Play]

A local dealer has one listed for $37.4k which will end up under $40k OTD. Another local dealer has sold 50 or so of them in the $38-$40k range. The SS 1LE is the best bang for the buck out there at the moment. I am curious to see where the 18 GT will end up price-wise with all the new options which are supposed to close the performance gap.

Here is the truly sad part.

I want to have some of what he is having.
:eyebulge::hail:

I will defend Voodooo on the part about his car having a couple of issues. I had a 2012 fifth gen Camaro SS that had all sorts of problems. Mind you it wasn't because of the car itself originally. I left it at a dealership and I don't know what happened, but I'm assuming they curbed the crap out of it at some point when they were looking at a cosmetic problem I had brought it in for.

I picked it up and it had a slight shimmy in the wheel. Well... that shimmy got worse and worse.

I brought it back to the dealership and complained about it. Being this was my first new car I had ever bought I was pretty naïve about a few things, including how I should never trust a dealership with a performance car.

Fast forward 4 months later and I'm still having horrible vibrations/shimmies in the steering wheel and can get nowhere with GM or the dealership.

I was blamed for running my car into a wall and the dealership told me I was the one who had abused and messed up my car.

A wall... I told the guy I'm pretty sure I would remember doing that.

This is the same service manager who earlier had told me it was the torque converter. On. A. Manual. Six. Speed. Transmission. Key word: Manual.

Let that sink in for a minute. This is the caliber of intelligence I was dealing with.

Anyway, after telling that guy to go die in a fire I was asked to leave and GM sent me to a new dealership.

Also, it's worth noting that GM was aware that I had headers on the car. That's relevant info for the next part.

At this new dealership, the service manager popped the hood, saw headers, looked at me and shut the hood and handed me the keys while telling me that they wouldn't look at my car and to have a nice day.

I let him know that GM was aware of the headers and specifically sent me to them to take a look at the front wheels/suspension/etc. and that they needed to still look at it per GMs request. He said they wouldn't and asked me to leave.

At that point, with making payments on a car that drove like a $3000 beater I pretty much had it and drove to a different dealership and traded it in. For a 2012 ZL1.

No more issues. Problem solved.

Moral of the story? I have no idea and just went off on one hell of a tandem and, Holy balls I typed way too much.

But I understand Voodooo and his love for his car. Even when our cars have issues that are sometimes out of our control we still think our car is the best. Well... Most of us.

Anyway... That's Childs Play's randomly terrible Camaro horror story of the day.

You're welcome.




To keep this on topic. I don't really think that that removal of metal in the rear section of the car would affect anything. Knowing what I know about statics, it looks like it would be just fine. Run it through FEA. I bet I'm right.

 

[bluebeastsrt]

Thanks for sharing.......I guess?:shrug:

 

[Childs Play]

Thanks for sharing.......I guess?:shrug:

Y U NO LIEK USELES RANT!?

I was merely trying to say I can understand why Voodooo likes his car even with a couple of issues he had in the beginning. Could have probably stopped at that. lol

 

[Clink]

LOL this thread is gold

 

[MyFirst5.0]

this got interesting since last night..lol

 

[thePill]

The ONLY thing that ever matters IS getting as much real intel separated from the fake intel and posting that for the consumers to judge. Whether or not that benefits me personally is none of any ones business.

I take a lot of pride getting information out to people 18 months in advance. Unfortunately, some would like to push the narrative that thePill is unreliable. Those people live in their own world. Other than the Mustang and Camaro's curb weights, I'd say it's all been pretty accurate.

What we see now is exactly as stated, hell, even the sales predictions were pretty spot on. As stated before, when the "Z/28" program got canceled the ZL1 and 1LE became the same programs. A lot of what a 650hp Camaro needed was left out and saved for a "1LE". No, the 1LE is in the base ZL1... this is something else.

The Alpha the Camaro uses is a pretty bad deal. It is an absolutely awful design and as soon as I can put nails in coffin, trust me, I've got lots of hammers. If this design was good the CYS or ATS Coupe would have used it to save even more weight. Look at the metal the ATS Coupe uses. That's the only naked eye observation I can share with you. We have challenged Chevy to release platform info but they most likely won't. The ATS published hard numbers and unfortunately, the Camaro is probably only 70% of that :( These changes to the rear section and mid-section are what's mostly responsible for the 6th Gens slack weight distribution compared to the ATS. As I stated then, Chevy simply subtracted too much metal from m the base SS. They needed to reapply that metal for the 1LE and sub-frame deletion is how the ZL1LE lost weight again. It is a great tool to have when nobody can test rigidity under acceleration and cornering :(. or how a full cage could help such cars and tracks like the Ring. (see 2013 GT500)

These are important talking points that needed explanation long ago. Unfortunately, poor decisions have led the Camaro to where it's at today.

 

[Voodooo]

A local dealer has one listed for $37.4k which will end up under $40k OTD. Another local dealer has sold 50 or so of them in the $38-$40k range. The SS 1LE is the best bang for the buck out there at the moment. I am curious to see where the 18 GT will end up price-wise with all the new options which are supposed to close the performance gap.



Here is the truly sad part.






I want to have some of what he is having.

:eyebulge::hail:

Well you show me any car and I'll show you the flaws. I have an eye for that stuff. I'm a picky OCD sob lol

 

[richtor]

I will defend Voodooo on the part about his car having a couple of issues. I had a 2012 fifth gen Camaro SS that had all sorts of problems. Mind you it wasn't because of the car itself originally. I left it at a dealership and I don't know what happened, but I'm assuming they curbed the crap out of it at some point when they were looking at a cosmetic problem I had brought it in for.

I picked it up and it had a slight shimmy in the wheel. Well... that shimmy got worse and worse.

I brought it back to the dealership and complained about it. Being this was my first new car I had ever bought I was pretty naïve about a few things, including how I should never trust a dealership with a performance car.

Fast forward 4 months later and I'm still having horrible vibrations/shimmies in the steering wheel and can get nowhere with GM or the dealership.

I was blamed for running my car into a wall and the dealership told me I was the one who had abused and messed up my car.

A wall... I told the guy I'm pretty sure I would remember doing that.

This is the same service manager who earlier had told me it was the torque converter. On. A. Manual. Six. Speed. Transmission. Key word: Manual.

Let that sink in for a minute. This is the caliber of intelligence I was dealing with.

Anyway, after telling that guy to go die in a fire I was asked to leave and GM sent me to a new dealership.

Also, it's worth noting that GM was aware that I had headers on the car. That's relevant info for the next part.

At this new dealership, the service manager popped the hood, saw headers, looked at me and shut the hood and handed me the keys while telling me that they wouldn't look at my car and to have a nice day.

I let him know that GM was aware of the headers and specifically sent me to them to take a look at the front wheels/suspension/etc. and that they needed to still look at it per GMs request. He said they wouldn't and asked me to leave.

At that point, with making payments on a car that drove like a $3000 beater I pretty much had it and drove to a different dealership and traded it in. For a 2012 ZL1.

No more issues. Problem solved.

Moral of the story? I have no idea and just went off on one hell of a tandem and, Holy balls I typed way too much.

But I understand Voodooo and his love for his car. Even when our cars have issues that are sometimes out of our control we still think our car is the best. Well... Most of us.

Anyway... That's Childs Play's randomly terrible Camaro horror story of the day.

You're welcome.




To keep this on topic. I don't really think that that removal of metal in the rear section of the car would affect anything. Knowing what I know about statics, it looks like it would be just fine. Run it through FEA. I bet I'm right.

Strange, a brand new camaro not running right. Dealer refuses to fix it, and yet you buy another gm? You are braver than I.

 

[Childs Play]

Strange, a brand new camaro not running right. Dealer refuses to fix it, and yet you buy another gm? You are braver than I.

No where in that entire rant does it say anything about not running right...

It had a cosmetic issue and they curbed the car and refused to acknowledge it.

Learn to read.

 

[Childs Play]

How can you not know what thePill is trying to prove? Have you examined the 6th Gen Camaro's Alpha structure? Did you witness the amount of metal that was removed from between the B and C Pillars? Yea. And an engineer would tell you for about the 5th time that it isn't a load bearing point. But please, use this same point in your next 5 posts...

Did you witness the 1LE break curb weight by nearly 100lbs and ever wonder where that weight came from? Nope. (I'm assuming you mean the SS 1LE here considering in the next sentence you talk about the exact opposite thing. Weight loss.

...and are you wondering where the ZL1LE found an additional 60+lbs of weight loss? Nope. Only you again. Different components for the track were swapped out from parts meant more for a DD, and those parts helped reduce weight. Next.

Did the ZL1LE get an amazing automatic option? Aren't you questioning why that is? Nope. Only you, again. For the 5th time now, 1LE is a manual only option and always has been. But by all means. Please keep beating a dead horse.

:headbonk::headbonk::headbonk::headbonk::headbonk:

 

[Voodooo]

I think I'm about to retire from this complete forum as a whole. It's getting old and I'm loosing interest.

 

[bluebeastsrt]

I think I'm about to retire from this complete forum as a whole. It's getting old and I'm loosing interest.

Me to. The tracks are finally open. No need to speculate on what I can and cannot beat anymore. I'm currently on the look out for new ZL1s.;) If they manage to get past the 15. I'll pull the 95 off the trailer.

Sponsored