Who else is Manual or Bust?

[waterman]

I understand that I will never be as fast as I could be rowing gears as I would be having my gears shifted for me by a computer. With that said, the experience (for me) is much more ethereal in analog than it is in digital. My connection with the car is so much more sublime in manual. When I am in that place, I will gladly give up a few 10ths per lap in exchange for the realization that it was my kindred bond with the guts of that machine that got me to my goals. As opposed to reaching that target via the latest digital technological innovation. Old school, I guess.

Whether on the track or on a Sunday drive, it's so much more satisfying to me to be an integral part of the mechanical workings in the alliance between me and my car.

If my livelihood depended on my lap times for food on the table and paying the bills; no brainer, give me the DCT. It doesn't, so I choose to fill my soul with the integral relationship between my skill set, my experience and my machine.

No question. If I was in the market for a GT500 or a C8, I'd hold out for the manual.

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[200MPHCOBRA]

I'd like to do a thought experiment.
Take two identically powered cars, say GT500's, equip one with the DCT and the other with an MT, identically geared, rowed by Evan Smith. Run them down the quarter mile. How much faster is the DCT.
My guess would be 2 tenths of a second at most. Now do it with the 10 speed auto. We know the last one compared to MT's in the Mustang GT's, is about 3 tenths. Has anyone seen something similar this so we can get a comparison? Also, how long is the dry clutch going to last if I'm pushing this thing. I don't have enough experience, actually none, to make a decision. We need more data. Does it box you in concerning mods?

 

[Eritas]

I'd like to do a thought experiment.
Take two identically powered cars, say GT500's, equip one with the DCT and the other with an MT, identically geared, rowed by Evan Smith. Run them down the quarter mile. How much faster is the DCT.
My guess would be 2 tenths of a second at most. Now do it with the 10 speed auto. We know the last one compared to MT's in the Mustang GT's, is about 3 tenths. Has anyone seen something similar this so we can get a comparison? Also, how long is the dry clutch going to last if I'm pushing this thing. I don't have enough experience, actually none, to make a decision. We need more data. Does it box you in concerning mods?

You cant make that comparison when the 10 speed does not have the same gear ratios as the 6 speed manual. The Tremec DCT has wet clutches like most DCTs. GTRs have been around for a decade now and I've never heard of anyone having to replace their clutches.

If people want a "visceral" driving experience, they shouldn't be buying 700hp cars when you can go to jail in 3rd gear. Pic a car with a close ratio transmission and not a lot of power that requires more shifting.

 

[V00D00]

Sorry, choosing something because it's popular with others isn't a very good reason for doing most anything. Never mind how rich or poor they might be (perhaps it's worse to look at the rich end, where after the lease runs out it's off to the next new thing).

"Awesome" is very much an individual subjective view.


Norm

I dont think you understand todays world if you dont think a large majority of consumers aren't "keeping up with the jones". I dont think you've looked at the european car market and seen the difference between those that buy, and those that lease, and their disposable income levels.

"awesome" is not really individually subjective. Id say look at sales #s of DCT vs Manual sold/leased for any vehicle that offers both. GT500 took 2 steps back for no 3rd pedal. but 8 steps forward with the DCT. #s dont lie

Definition of awesome


1a: inspiring awean awesome task/responsibilitya place of awesome beauty
binformal : TERRIFIC, EXTRAORDINARY

Definition of extraordinary


1a: going beyond what is usual, regular, or customaryextraordinary powers
b: exceptional to a very marked extentextraordinary beauty
cof a financial transaction : NONRECURRING
2: employed for or sent on a special function or service

Trust me, I understand the physics and the engineering behind the matters of shift speed and maintaining boost.

Got to give you the stoplight launch thing, at least relative to a 3-pedal manual, because that's never been my 'thing'. Maybe not relative to a transbrake'd conventional automatic, though.



Doesn't the Z06 have an available conventional 7-speed conventional manual?

FWIW, I'd rather take the time to make myself learn how to cope with that much power than be given an easy way out.



This is one of the key differences between you and me. I'm not the least bit willing to slap a gear selector in 'D' and hand the rest off to some form of automation. Not even in stop/go traffic, so that'd be the worst of one world for me.



Like I've posted a number of times, if I was Time Trialing or running at a some W2W level where there were contingencies at stake, I'd have to do what I had to do. At any level below that, better times resulting from having a smarter transmission aren't going to be nearly as rewarding as better times achieved because I did all of the bits and pieces of my driving better.



That's not what I've been arguing at all. It's whether a DCT is an automatic or something else. The only connection to me individually is that I don't care to drive automatics simply because of their "automatic-ness".

Obviously there has to be more engineering involved in designing a DCT, but I think 'better' needs to be reserved for comparing its behavior against a conventional manual over the full range of driving. Not just on a race track or during a highway pull, where DCTs tend to be at their best.



I suppose I could run some numbers working with different shift times on otherwise identical cars to see what the differences from WOT on corner exit to some marker in the braking zone for the next corner might be. Or, given a little more time, plot the distance between two cars as a function of position along that straight, one with 500ms shifting and the other at something less. Heck, I can already account for the dogleg shifts on an H-pattern shifter taking more time than the straight-back shifts.
Something I'm currently involved with

Norm

ill save you some time, and consider the D2 mode even faster than a traditional automatic



and here is DCT vs manual, just for good measure.

all data is taken from the VBOX logs, and the performance #s favor the 6mt everywhere, except on the road, well dragstrip. At the time, these were the 2 fastest 1/4 mile E92 M3s in existence. same tuner

 

[Sig556]

I understand that I will never be as fast as I could be rowing gears as I would be having my gears shifted for me by a computer. With that said, the experience (for me) is much more ethereal in analog than it is in digital. My connection with the car is so much more sublime in manual. When I am in that place, I will gladly give up a few 10ths per lap in exchange for the realization that it was my kindred bond with the guts of that machine that got me to my goals. As opposed to reaching that target via the latest digital technological innovation. Old school, I guess.

Whether on the track or on a Sunday drive, it's so much more satisfying to me to be an integral part of the mechanical workings in the alliance between me and my car.

If my livelihood depended on my lap times for food on the table and paying the bills; no brainer, give me the DCT. It doesn't, so I choose to fill my soul with the integral relationship between my skill set, my experience and my machine.

No question. If I was in the market for a GT500 or a C8, I'd hold out for the manual.

Very well stated and I couldn't agree with you more.

 

[Sig556]

I dont think you understand todays world if you dont think a large majority of consumers aren't "keeping up with the jones". I dont think you've looked at the european car market and seen the difference between those that buy, and those that lease, and their disposable income levels.

"awesome" is not really individually subjective. Id say look at sales #s of DCT vs Manual sold/leased for any vehicle that offers both. GT500 took 2 steps back for no 3rd pedal. but 8 steps forward with the DCT. #s dont lie

Definition of awesome


1a: inspiring awean awesome task/responsibilitya place of awesome beauty
binformal : TERRIFIC, EXTRAORDINARY

Definition of extraordinary


1a: going beyond what is usual, regular, or customaryextraordinary powers
b: exceptional to a very marked extentextraordinary beauty
cof a financial transaction : NONRECURRING
2: employed for or sent on a special function or service



ill save you some time, and consider the D2 mode even faster than a traditional automatic



and here is DCT vs manual, just for good measure.

all data is taken from the VBOX logs, and the performance #s favor the 6mt everywhere, except on the road, well dragstrip. At the time, these were the 2 fastest 1/4 mile E92 M3s in existence. same tuner

This reminds me of a race I was in back in 1969 I lined up alongside a Big Block Chevelle Automatic and my 69 Z28 4 speed Camaro. We ran a 1/4 mile course in a Industrial Park at night. (New Jersey)The guy in the automatic beat me by about 1 car length. After the race he said you can really shift that thing but you lost the race every time you shifted. This gives validity to prove the programed shift is faster than the manually shifted transmission. PS I still like rowing through the gears though I am going to embrace the new auto in the 2020.

 

[Loki-GT]

Watch the videos on YouTube showing street races, you can see especially with the new automatics the manual losing distance for the brief time they are shifting. My last Mustang I could rip gears in so I didn't lose enough and typically made it up because of the better gearing the manual. At this point which is faster doesn't matter since I'm forced with auto, but I'm damn glad the autos are finally where they are. A 2000 Mustang GT automatic racing against a 2000 Mustang GT stick, the stick kicks its ass every time so it all depends on who's automatic is being used, for a lot of years automatics in Mustangs were turds.

 

[Eritas]

Only in the past decade have performance (oem equipped not drag race transmissions) automatics been decent/outperform manuals. Most autos are still garbage, which is why calling DCTs an "automatic" is insulting and ignorant.

 

[Loki-GT]

Only in the past decade have performance (oem equipped not drag race transmissions) automatics been decent/outperform manuals. Most autos are still garbage, which is why calling DCTs an "automatic" is insulting and ignorant.

I can't argue when somebody says, if you press the gas and it shifts, it's an automatic, I don't see that as insulting or ignorant because it's the very definition of automatic. I agree the DCT is awesome and would love to have one myself if I could ever afford a Ford GT or GT500.

 

[Hack]

Only in the past decade have performance (oem equipped not drag race transmissions) automatics been decent/outperform manuals. Most autos are still garbage, which is why calling DCTs an "automatic" is insulting and ignorant.

You shouldn't take it as an insult. It's just a description of what the transmission does and how it works from a driver's standpoint. And ignorance doesn't apply.

 

[ChuckC]

Only in the past decade have performance (oem equipped not drag race transmissions) automatics been decent/outperform manuals. Most autos are still garbage, which is why calling DCTs an "automatic" is insulting and ignorant.

Good luck with that.

DCT's are automatics. Yes, even if most other automatics are garbage.

And I have no problem with Ford putting a DCT on a GT500 just as I had no problem with Ford putting a MT on the Bullitt and GT350.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Only in the past decade have performance (oem equipped not drag race transmissions) automatics been decent/outperform manuals. Most autos are still garbage, which is why calling DCTs an "automatic" is insulting and ignorant.

Only if you let yourself remain captive to the old-time stigma surrounding the automatics of decades past.

If I can get past that - I've already said as much - anybody else ought to be able to. For those who don't know, my position on conventional automatic transmissions is, well, let's just say there isn't a salesman alive who could sell me a conventional torque-converter-AT or CVT car and leave it at that.


In a day or two I may have something to show regarding how much benefit only a change in shift time from 500 ms to 100ms might mean . . . it's been an interesting (and somewhat timely) challenge, so I'm going to thank you guys for pushing me into it.


Norm

 

[V00D00]

In a day or two I may have something to show regarding how much benefit only a change in shift time from 500 ms to 100ms might mean . . . it's been an interesting (and somewhat timely) challenge, so I'm going to thank you guys for pushing me into it.


Norm

already done and posted, with telemetry data from a single car, within minutes, 12 run scenarios, same road, same driver, same everything, except shift times

 

[Sid]

Me. Ford bought back my GT350 due to engine failure. I was waiting on the GT500. No manual. I am buying a ZL1 1LE as a stand in until they put a manual in the GT500.... if they do.

 

[Hack]

Me.Ford bought back my GT350 due to engine failure. I was waiting on the GT500. No manual. I am buying a ZL1 1LE as a stand in until they put a manual in the GT500.... if they do.

Sorry to hear about your engine failure. The ZL1 1LE is an awesome car. Make sure you stop by and tell us how you like it!

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