Who else is Manual or Bust?

[Epiphany]

Very well said Rothgray.

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[Norm Peterson]

When I was taking classes, getting ready for super trofeo, my instructors always said this about DCT's. "The DCT will make an average driver, look amazing, in lap time reduction" It's the same thing with the drag strip. You can launch like an auto, and never miss a gear.

Understood, and that's strictly a racing environment, right? Where you'd have to take advantage of whatever is allowed.

My point is aimed primarily at street and HPDE drivers, who are likely to end up conning themselves into thinking "now that I'm faster, I must be better".


Norm

 

[Rothgray]

Understood, and that's strictly a racing environment, right? Where you'd have to take advantage of whatever is allowed.

My point is aimed primarily at street and HPDE drivers, who are likely to end up conning themselves into thinking "now that I'm faster, I must be better".


Norm

Well, even at a stop light race, the DCT is going to launch cleaner. During a highway pull, it is going to shift faster, and the car will maintain boost through shifts.

But let's discuss, what manufacturers have been doing as of the last few years. We are seeing more and more street cars, that are plenty track capable, and even in some extreme cases, track cars, that are rather steerable. A lot of this has to do with drivetrain characteristics, like AWD, and AWS, and the DCT. We are in a world where 700+hp is now becoming the norm, low 10s, and high 9s, is almost expected out of cars right off of the showroom floor that cost over $200,000, and sub 7 minute ring times. Now, the GT500 is not quite there yet, but it will do something, that only one other car in existence can do, and that is run a sub 11 second 1/4 mile, as well as handle to at minimum a GT class car's characteristics, with stickering under $100,000. Only the Corvette Z06 sits with it, in this category presently.

Daily driving, the DCT is better in my opinion. Stop and go traffic? Throw it in Drive mode, and just let the car do its thing. This is literally a best of both worlds option.

The only thing you are losing out, is working out a clutch foot. You still have the ability to shift via paddle, and faster I may add.

As I said before, the DCT will make you "better" in a sense. Better as in, better times. Driving skill, well, through pure abstraction, yes. It removes one more thing to worry or focus on.

The DCT may not be better for a driver like yourself. You may just purely want to row your own gears, and to your credit, you should do whatever makes you happy while you're driving, and racing your car. But, you cannot really debate, what is a better engineered solution, a DCT or a Manual transmission. There is literally nothing a manual has over a DCT from this stand point.

Edit: Some interesting statistics, an average manual transmission upshift time (driver's ability) is around 500ms. An absolute professional has been timed to be around 350ms. 100ms, from a DCT is amazing.

 

[Hack]

As I said before, the DCT will make you "better" in a sense. Better as in, better times. Driving skill, well, through pure abstraction, yes. It removes one more thing to worry or focus on.

A DCT won't make you better, but if it makes you think you are better then it's doing its job.

 

[Rothgray]

Yes, and no. It will improve your times, which improves overall performance. At the end of the day, that in turn, makes you better.

 

[Anthony 05 GT]

Manual or bust for me, no question about it. I fully understand it would not be as quick, but that's what I prefer...a real driving experience needs 3 pedals for my taste.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Well, even at a stop light race, the DCT is going to launch cleaner. During a highway pull, it is going to shift faster, and the car will maintain boost through shifts.

Trust me, I understand the physics and the engineering behind the matters of shift speed and maintaining boost.

Got to give you the stoplight launch thing, at least relative to a 3-pedal manual, because that's never been my 'thing'. Maybe not relative to a transbrake'd conventional automatic, though.

But let's discuss, what manufacturers have been doing as of the last few years. We are seeing more and more street cars, that are plenty track capable, and even in some extreme cases, track cars, that are rather steerable. A lot of this has to do with drivetrain characteristics, like AWD, and AWS, and the DCT. We are in a world where 700+hp is now becoming the norm, low 10s, and high 9s, is almost expected out of cars right off of the showroom floor that cost over $200,000, and sub 7 minute ring times. Now, the GT500 is not quite there yet, but it will do something, that only one other car in existence can do, and that is run a sub 11 second 1/4 mile, as well as handle to at minimum a GT class car's characteristics, with stickering under $100,000. Only the Corvette Z06 sits with it, in this category presently.

Doesn't the Z06 have an available conventional 7-speed conventional manual?

FWIW, I'd rather take the time to make myself learn how to cope with that much power than be given an easy way out.

Daily driving, the DCT is better in my opinion. Stop and go traffic? Throw it in Drive mode, and just let the car do its thing. This is literally a best of both worlds option.

This is one of the key differences between you and me. I'm not the least bit willing to slap a gear selector in 'D' and hand the rest off to some form of automation. Not even in stop/go traffic, so that'd be the worst of one world for me.

The only thing you are losing out, is working out a clutch foot. You still have the ability to shift via paddle, and faster I may add.

As I said before, the DCT will make you "better" in a sense. Better as in, better times. Driving skill, well, through pure abstraction, yes. It removes one more thing to worry or focus on.

Like I've posted a number of times, if I was Time Trialing or running at a some W2W level where there were contingencies at stake, I'd have to do what I had to do. At any level below that, better times resulting from having a smarter transmission aren't going to be nearly as rewarding as better times achieved because I did all of the bits and pieces of my driving better.

The DCT may not be better for a driver like yourself. You may just purely want to row your own gears, and to your credit, you should do whatever makes you happy while you're driving, and racing your car. But, you cannot really debate, what is a better engineered solution, a DCT or a Manual transmission. There is literally nothing a manual has over a DCT from this stand point.

That's not what I've been arguing at all. It's whether a DCT is an automatic or something else. The only connection to me individually is that I don't care to drive automatics simply because of their "automatic-ness".

Obviously there has to be more engineering involved in designing a DCT, but I think 'better' needs to be reserved for comparing its behavior against a conventional manual over the full range of driving. Not just on a race track or during a highway pull, where DCTs tend to be at their best.

Edit: Some interesting statistics, an average manual transmission upshift time (driver's ability) is around 500ms. An absolute professional has been timed to be around 350ms. 100ms, from a DCT is amazing.

I suppose I could run some numbers working with different shift times on otherwise identical cars to see what the differences from WOT on corner exit to some marker in the braking zone for the next corner might be. Or, given a little more time, plot the distance between two cars as a function of position along that straight, one with 500ms shifting and the other at something less. Heck, I can already account for the dogleg shifts on an H-pattern shifter taking more time than the straight-back shifts.
Something I'm currently involved with

Norm

 

[Rothgray]

Norm, you are absolutely correct, that Chevy offers a manual in both the Z06, and the pricier, and more powerful ZR1. I can only speculate why Chevy did this, other than the purists would want it. Maybe, that is the only reason. If I am not mistaken (someone correct me), the manual adoption rate on the ZR1 is low. It is more equal on the Z06. But, both of these vehicles 7M counterparts do not perform as well as their 8A offering.

I feel you, and myself have two very different view points on the DCT offering. I am trying to stay as objective as possible, and sticking to the factual benefits of the DCT. I will admit, my point about being able to put it into Drive during standard traffic is most likely leaning on the side of subjectivity, but, it is a function, a standard manual gearbox cannot do, so if we were opposing counsel in court, I feel a better argument could be made that this is a benefit, as it is an added feature. Whether all people find value in it, is up to them.

The next arguments which could lean to subjectivity is, the ease of shifting with the DCT via paddle, some may see this as a better way of doing things, it most certainly is from a process perspective more efficient, as it has been proven through real data, to be faster, and always reliable at performing the same procedure, which is in that of changing a gear, vs. manual user input. Meaning, the manual way, is always slower, and has the chance of poor quality, i.e. a missed shift. Your subjectivity although will show in your preference in which method you like more.

As far as I am concerned, I used to be a row your own gears kind of guy. I still am in a sense, depending on the car. It is of my opinion, a car full of technology, should take advantage of the latest and greatest. In this case, it is the DCT, as far as it being much newer tech than a traditional manual. I grew up with Mustangs and Corvettes, and eventually when income started to climb, I was able to buy cars like 911 Turbos, McLarens, Lamborghinis etc. I've grown an affinity toward the technology those cars have, and how easy to drive they are with their insane performance figures they bring to the table. This was something my 1000hp+ Shelbys could never do properly. The GT350/R most certainly got my attention as of late, with how exotic like it feels around the track, but it still did not do it for me. This new GT500, really has my attention, I feel it is a great offering that will bring me back to my roots of cars with the Mustangs soul, but with a modern near-supercar feel of performance.

 

[VooDoo387R]

I'm buying one and the DCT is fine with mine. I already have a GT350R so I have the manual whenever I get the itch to bang gears. That being said, it's BS that it's only available in a DCT regardless of what their reasoning is.

 

[JamesinLittleSilver]

It all depends on what your objective is and what you enjoy. I prefer in ice and snow a real manual, I think you can do more things with it than in a auto or your fancy DCT. If I was trying to set a lap record at Nurburgring give me the DCT. If I am trying to improve my driving around NJMP give me my manual car.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Norm, you are absolutely correct, that Chevy offers a manual in both the Z06, and the pricier, and more powerful ZR1. I can only speculate why Chevy did this, other than the purists would want it. Maybe, that is the only reason. If I am not mistaken (someone correct me), the manual adoption rate on the ZR1 is low. It is more equal on the Z06. But, both of these vehicles 7M counterparts do not perform as well as their 8A offering.

I think we really need to take relative performance out of the discussion. 50 years ago I could have told you that hydraulic technology would outperform conventional MTs, as far as straightline acceleration was concerned.

I feel you, and myself have two very different view points on the DCT offering. I am trying to stay as objective as possible, and sticking to the factual benefits of the DCT. I will admit, my point about being able to put it into Drive during standard traffic is most likely leaning on the side of subjectivity, but, it is a function, a standard manual gearbox cannot do, so if we were opposing counsel in court, I feel a better argument could be made that this is a benefit, as it is an added feature. Whether all people find value in it, is up to them.

We do have very different points of view here. If you have a gearbox that can do something that a conventional MT cannot, it must be because something has been automated.

On the other hand, if somebody came up with a way for the dual clutches and the actual gearshifting to work without any electronic intervention or other automation, I think I'd be entirely willing to call that kind of dual-clutch arrangement a manual.

The next arguments which could lean to subjectivity is, the ease of shifting with the DCT via paddle, some may see this as a better way of doing things, it most certainly is from a process perspective more efficient, as it has been proven through real data, to be faster, and always reliable at performing the same procedure, which is in that of changing a gear, vs. manual user input. Meaning, the manual way, is always slower, and has the chance of poor quality, i.e. a missed shift. Your subjectivity although will show in your preference in which method you like more.

I have no problem stipulating to the effect that full manual operation is slower than its automated equivalent. But speed here isn't the issue, even though it's what everybody seems to run to..

Actually, if I ever was to buy a car with a DCT (as these things are currently configured), I'd have no trouble calling it an automatic. None whatsoever. I know that much right now.

As far as I am concerned, I used to be a row your own gears kind of guy. I still am in a sense, depending on the car. It is of my opinion, a car full of technology, should take advantage of the latest and greatest. In this case, it is the DCT, as far as it being much newer tech than a traditional manual. I grew up with Mustangs and Corvettes, and eventually when income started to climb, I was able to buy cars like 911 Turbos, McLarens, Lamborghinis etc. I've grown an affinity toward the technology those cars have, and how easy to drive they are with their insane performance figures they bring to the table.

I guess this is another big difference between us. I want to know it's all on me to extract the performance, and if that makes the car less convenient to drive than what most other people would accept . . . even better. I'm fine with technologies for such things as engine fueling and ignition that I can't possibly keep up with in real time. What I'm not OK with is handing over duties that are within what I can keep up with.

I've driven two of the upper-money cars on your list (and one that is not). Very briefly, but very hard (within the limits of available real estate) for those brief periods. And that was long enough to know I'd still rather have been driving them in full conventional MT trim.


Norm

 

[Eritas]

on the other hand, if somebody came up with a way for the dual clutches and the actual gearshifting to work without any electronic intervention or other automation, I think I'd be entirely willing to call that kind of dual-clutch arrangement a manual.

Actually, if I ever was to buy a car with a DCT (as these things are currently configured), I'd have no trouble calling it an automatic. None whatsoever. I know that much right now.

It's obvious you don't understand how DCTs work.

 

[Fatguy]

It's obvious you don't understand how DCTs work.

He may know more than you think...


But for him this is a philosophical issue about the driving experience and his position is being discredited by cost analysis by the car companies pushing limited options. I love the quip that the GT500 “might” get a manual if there is enough interest. Read that as: If the numbers make it profitable!

 

[Fatguy]

Or let me put it this way as a guy who has been in advertising for a few years. If Ford marketing sees interest in a manual here and then in some test groups of enthusiasts they may put out the option. If everyone screams “DCT FOREVER” then no manual will happen. So let the manual aficionados have their say.



Ford is watching...

 

[Norm Peterson]

It's obvious you don't understand how DCTs work.

I didn't say I thought making a DCT 100% manually-operated would be easy. Only that that's what it would take for me to ever call a DCT transmission design a "manual". For now, they're automatics at least at the general-consumer level, and try to avoid taking that as a slam against DCTs even though it's not a nice high-tech sounding word. From the driver's seat, there is no other category here.

There aren't very many ways to axially move the various bits that disengage one gear and engage another in a transmission design that uses two or more parallel shafts, so figuring out how to accomplish that part with direct linkage to a driver-operated shift lever instead of with electronically-controlled hydraulic cylinders or solenoids shouldn't be all that tough. Operating two clutches such that only one is applied at a time with only one pedal would get a little trickier.


Norm

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