Who else is Manual or Bust?

[ctandc72]

i dont buy that at all. the r&d for dct, tooling and warranty claims are going to be astronomical compared to a manual. i bet once offerred that dct is going to have a retail of over $15k alone. now, i dont know the profit margin, but that trans alone is not a cost benefit in a single application like this. When the bmws had dct warranty claims, if it was more than replace oil gaskets/pans, the entire thing was replaced. im the 1st person to have a built getrag 7spd dct, and it took dodson 3+years to get it back to me. the gtr dct is what, $20k to build to handle high hp/tq/rpms? and thats only because of company's specific to building them + demand. I think we will luck out on that one if mustang and zr1s are getting a basically equal unit, so the aftermarket will find a way, but in no way could that be cheaper than 6spd warranty claims

Did you read the Road and Track article I linked? That was from 2015. They admit that with a manual, the driver is last question mark linking the power to the chassis. With an automatic - there is no question mark. I thought we were talking about performance cars? Taking "normal" cars are an entirely different ballgame. It's all about production numbers.

And I'm not saying it's the main reason. There are numerous reasons and I guarantee you one of those reasons is financial. It's how car companies operate. Profit margin. Now when you start talking "Exclusive" and "ultra expensive" cars - such as super cars, that's an entirely different thing.

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[V00D00]

Did you read the Road and Track article I linked? That was from 2015. They admit that with a manual, the driver is last question mark linking the power to the chassis. With an automatic - there is no question mark. I thought we were talking about performance cars? Taking "normal" cars are an entirely different ballgame. It's all about production numbers.

And I'm not saying it's the main reason. There are numerous reasons and I guarantee you one of those reasons is financial. It's how car companies operate. Profit margin. Now when you start talking "Exclusive" and "ultra expensive" cars - such as super cars, that's an entirely different thing.

im confused, the DCT M3's/M4s and 2020 GT500 and GTR are performance cars.. I would consider ferrari, mcclaren and lamborghinis exclusive and ultra expensive. I dont even understand what your saying from a profit standpoint. im saying 10k+ of the msrp is in the trans alone, and warranty costs are going to be high on them for the dealers, so a manual would only save them money. show me a newly designed manual that parts and labor are not cheap on, or a technician cant tear open to replace individually vs having to replace the entire transmission

 

[ctandc72]

im confused, the DCT M3's/M4s and 2020 GT500 and GTR are performance cars.. I would consider ferrari, mcclaren and lamborghinis exclusive and ultra expensive. I dont even understand what your saying from a profit standpoint. im saying 10k+ of the msrp is in the trans alone, and warranty costs are going to be high on them for the dealers, so a manual would only save them money. show me a newly designed manual that parts and labor are not cheap on, or a technician cant tear open to replace individually vs having to replace the entire transmission

Sorry I didn't express my thought clearly. Driver over revs car, cooks clutch, shocks driveline / breaks parts because of dumping the clutch etc. Those all damage parts. Now how often would those happen with an automatic equipped car.

Like the Lamborghini engineer said - with a manual transmission you are relying on the driver for the linking of the power to the chassis. With an auto - you aren't. That's it.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Well of course, a manual transmission really has no place, other than in the "fun" car segment, as well as some bare bottom of the line economy class vehicles, as far as passenger vehicles go.

No place? That's an attitude I just can't grasp without words like 'vanity' and 'snob-appeal' immediately coming to mind, as put-downs for what one believes is not only beneath their dignity but should be beneath everybody else's as well.

Seriously, does anybody care if they have theoretically "saved" a few seconds on their commute, or on some random weekend errand?

Why not in a family sedan? Do cars in that segment really need to be so uninvolving - or downright boring - to drive?


Norm

 

[speedrx]

Ford already has data from the Camaro which offers the Auto and manual options, the auto outsells the manual by a large margin. Other HP cars are going away from the manual, Ford knows they will sell all the GT500 they care to make with a DCT, no reason to put the extra cost in offering a Manual option.

 

[Tomster]

I can't wait. And that's coming from a manual lover. I'll still have an R for the track and hopefully a 500 coming that will save a few seconds off lap times.

Most importantly, and I guess this is the point, is kicking the crap out of the 1LE and maybe the ZR1 (we will see).

Manual or bust..... I'll take the bust

 

[V00D00]

Sorry I didn't express my thought clearly. Driver over revs car, cooks clutch, shocks driveline / breaks parts because of dumping the clutch etc. Those all damage parts. Now how often would those happen with an automatic equipped car.

Like the Lamborghini engineer said - with a manual transmission you are relying on the driver for the linking of the power to the chassis. With an auto - you aren't. That's it.

I still dont see the cost savings. clutch is a wear and tear item, not covered. over rev is driver induced error, not covered. driveline behind trans is a cheap fix, comparably.

No place? That's an attitude I just can't grasp without words like 'vanity' and 'snob-appeal' immediately coming to mind, as put-downs for what one believes is not only beneath their dignity but should be beneath everybody else's as well.

Seriously, does anybody care if they have theoretically "saved" a few seconds on their commute, or on some random weekend errand?

Why not in a family sedan? Do cars in that segment really need to be so uninvolving - or downright boring - to drive?


Norm

reverse that. when buying cars, regardless of performance or DD usage, how many Xs are in the PRO column for a manual?

 

[Norm Peterson]

Well, since a MT driver is tied a bit more closely to the whole business of driving, MT probably gets a slight nod with respect to things like situational awareness and a generally lower incidence rate of being distracted. That isn't just my opinion, BTW.

When you're spending $20k, $40k, or more on some single purchase, why not actively enjoy using it? Even if the reason why you're using it at any particular moment is itself not particularly exciting or enjoyable. Why not put a little fun back into it?


But really, the burden of proof as to why cars in more mundane segments of the market should not still be as much fun to drive as the "fun cars" (for which a MT still is apparently acceptable) belongs on those who already think that mainstream cars don't have to be much fun to drive.

I hope I never get so old, or acquire such a roll-over-and-become-just-another-conformist attitude, that "fun to drive" and what it takes to make that happen stop being top car purchase criteria.


Norm

 

[Rothgray]

No place? That's an attitude I just can't grasp without words like 'vanity' and 'snob-appeal' immediately coming to mind, as put-downs for what one believes is not only beneath their dignity but should be beneath everybody else's as well.

Seriously, does anybody care if they have theoretically "saved" a few seconds on their commute, or on some random weekend errand?

Why not in a family sedan? Do cars in that segment really need to be so uninvolving - or downright boring - to drive?


Norm

Do you make product decisions at your occupation? The comment of having no place is perfectly placed. The take rate would be dismally low and it would be an absolute revenue loss. Sticking a manual in say something like a Toyota Camry.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Do you make product decisions at your occupation? The comment of having no place is perfectly placed. The take rate would be dismally low and it would be an absolute revenue loss. Sticking a manual in say something like a Toyota Camry.

"No place" as seen from the business side is not the same as "no place" from the consumer side, and some here are trying to make the business side logic become the way every consumer is supposed to think. Whether any given consumer wants to or not.

I've posted before (not sure which threads) that I'd be willing to see the MT become the extra-cost option if that's what it would take to keep the MT available. I don't think I'm alone on this . . .


I was an engineer in a couple of industries where the decisions I made had to be faithfully carried out (human life and property were very much at stake). Retired these days.


Norm

 

[bdub85]

This is like the holy war that took place on the gen 2 raptor forums before they came out regarding no v8 option.

 

[Braski]

This is like the holy war that took place on the gen 2 raptor forums before they came out regarding no v8 option.

Just wait until there's no internal combustion engine option. With electric motors all transmission will be obsolete.

 

[Norm Peterson]

The take rate would be dismally low and it would be an absolute revenue loss.

Actually, that might be enough to put the Camry on an initial shopping list. Maybe not a more fully researched "short list", but at least on the list with a fighting chance. Wouldn't be much different from the way our Subaru purchase came about. Or the '01 Maxima. Or the '95 Mazda 626 (that's not in my sig an more) before that.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

Just wait until there's no internal combustion engine option. With electric motors all transmission will be obsolete.

If I'm still around, that will be interesting to watch. If only to see how well (or poorly) that goes down with today's AT, DCT, and CVT fans.


Norm

 

[Braski]

If I'm still around, that will be interesting to watch. If only to see how well (or poorly) that goes down with today's AT, DCT, and CVT fans.


Norm

It will be faster so they will buy it!

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