Whippled Mach 1 vs GT500

[JetGray_Mach1]

Yes the visibility isn't that great. I still have to be really careful when I try to change lanes. I don't think the Alpha chassis is better than the Mustang chassis, either - so I don't see the "magic chassis" as a reason to buy one. I think the two cars are roughly comparable - the Camaro does feel slightly more rigid. The Camaro is slightly lighter and comes with stiffer suspension. If you put stiffer springs/shocks on a Mustang, they handle pretty similarly.

One thing I don't like about the Alpha chassis is that all the subframe members in the car are very fragile. Jacking the car up can be a real pain.

Wow so many people praise on how much better the Alpha chassis, interesting. Regarding the interior, since you have both what are your thoughts on the interior. I personally prefer the interior on the S550.

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[Hack]

Wow so many people praise on how much better the Alpha chassis, interesting. Regarding the interior, since you have both what are your thoughts on the interior. I personally prefer the interior on the S550.

Sorry for the book, but I have a lot of time driving both. So here you go. I'd say it's a mixed bag on interior for me.

I'm 6'4" and almost 200 lbs. I think the Mustang is nice in how the seats recline and have adjustable lumbar. Both my Mustang and Camaro have base cloth seats. The Mustang seat is too narrow for me which can be very uncomfortable at times for my sciatica (piriformis syndrome). The Camaro seat fits me well (it's wider), but doesn't recline as much or have lumbar adjustments. When I used to weigh 240, the recline would have meant more to me, but now that I lost the weight it doesn't matter much. I'm fairly lean, but have a wide frame, so this seat review may not apply to a lot of normally sized people.

My Camaro doesn't have the auto-dimming rear view mirror. I genuinely despise the Mustang auto dimming rear view. I can't even tell you how much I hate it. It doesn't dim nearly enough. I would almost give the Camaro the win on interior quality just for this one item, but I assume for most people it's a minor annoyance or some might even like it.

Now I don't have a completely fair comparison on "interior quality" because I lucked into a good deal on a used Camaro with a bunch of optional equipment that I would have been too cheap to purchase new. My Mustang is PP1 and that's it.

So, my Camaro has a much better stereo with the Bose brand. It has active exhaust that sounds awesome. I like the backfire tuning Chevy put on it. My Mustang exhaust is so quiet I mostly hear induction noise and I really want to change it. But all the aftermarket Mustang exhaust options are expensive, so I've been putting it off. I really don't like the push button radio and tiny screen on my Mustang. I feel like Ford cheaped out excessively on that equipment and it's laughable that that's what they chose to put in the base Mustang. The base Fiesta ST I owned had a much nicer stereo (including speakers).

Gages and dash (other than the center screen) are a wash for me. They are both fine. The Camaro has a really nice, large center screen that was optional but is way better than the base Mustang equipment. I would say it's comparable to what was in my tech pack GT350, but the stereo that came with it is way better than the stereo on the tech pack GT350. Worlds better. Possibly the base Chevy stereo is as bad as the Ford, I don't know.

The clutch is lighter on the Chevy, which is really nice. The shifter and transmission are better on the Chevy as well, and they make driving the car a better experience in my opinion.

If my Camaro had the Ford stereo, the Ford might be slightly better due to reclining and lumbar. But with the options my LT1 has, the Camaro interior is quite a bit better.

Ford's fake leather is really terrible and plasticy feeling in my opinion. I don't really like touching the steering wheel and I've toyed with replacing it. Chevy's version is better.

Bottom line, I would give the Ford interior the slight win mostly based on visibility, lumbar and better recline. But the specific Camaro I own is more enjoyable for me to be in than the specific Mustang I own.

 

[MAGS1]

I don't really like touching the steering wheel and I've toyed with replacing it. Chevy's version is better.

I agree, the Camaro steering wheel is really nice. Not sure what your thoughts are, but I felt the Camaro menus were not very intuitive as far as the gauge menus or even the menus on the dash screen. My wife has a GMC SUV, so I’m very familiar with GM screens and menus but the Camaro’s I’ve driven lately I found difficult to find what I was looking for.

I would also agree on the stereo. Even the rental Camaro I had a month or so ago had a Bose stereo. But I find the coyote provides a better exhaust symphony than the Camaro, so I’d rather listen to the exhaust than the stereo in my car anyway.

Plenty of pros and cons for both cars for sure. To me the Mustang is the better overall package. And I’d take a Camaro over a Challenger, even with the Camaro visibility issues.

 

[MAGS1]

As to the OP’s original question, GT500 CFTP is probably the best Mustang driving experience I’ve ever had (it’s a tie with a GT350R IMO). If you can swing it, that’s the route I would go. There are several for sale at a dealer local to me with low miles. I was actually there for a bit today just window shopping (CFTP’s are out of my budget) and they’ve got a couple of beauties. Diamond Motorworks in Lisle, IL.

 

[Hack]

I agree, the Camaro steering wheel is really nice. Not sure what your thoughts are, but I felt the Camaro menus were not very intuitive as far as the gauge menus or even the menus on the dash screen. My wife has a GMC SUV, so I’m very familiar with GM screens and menus but the Camaro’s I’ve driven lately I found difficult to find what I was looking for.

I like the GM controls, but I'm comparing a 2021 with the best option to a base 2017 and tech is advancing quickly. I mostly just turn active exhaust to stealth or sport and back, so I don't use a lot of controls all the time. The audio controls are great on the GM product in my opinion.

I would also agree on the stereo. Even the rental Camaro I had a month or so ago had a Bose stereo. But I find the coyote provides a better exhaust symphony than the Camaro, so I’d rather listen to the exhaust than the stereo in my car anyway.

Plenty of pros and cons for both cars for sure. To me the Mustang is the better overall package. And I’d take a Camaro over a Challenger, even with the Camaro visibility issues.

I'm interested in the Challenger, but the prices for manual transmission, wide body versions are too high for me. I spent ~$10-15K less for the Camaro than what I was able to see available in comparable Challengers.

As to the OP’s original question, GT500 CFTP is probably the best Mustang driving experience I’ve ever had (it’s a tie with a GT350R IMO). If you can swing it, that’s the route I would go. There are several for sale at a dealer local to me with low miles. I was actually there for a bit today just window shopping (CFTP’s are out of my budget) and they’ve got a couple of beauties. Diamond Motorworks in Lisle, IL.

I could imagine the extra torque of the blower plus the extra torque available with the DCT gearing would get you a ton of instant acceleration, which is nice. And I think Ford does a good job of making their premium products feel special.

A side benefit that people don't talk about enough is that Ford doesn't make many of the Shelbys and so they really retain their value well. Even look at Boss 302s and how well they kept their value over many years. Add a blower to a Mach and the value is reduced for many buyers.

 

[kilobravo]

I don't really like supercharged vehicles that much

DIdn't expect to read that, Hack..may I ask your reasoning?

At least to me, visibility is a major issue with the Camaro

I have only been in a couple, Mark, but I agree, the horrible visibility makes the car a non-starter for me.

 

[MAGS1]

DIdn't expect to read that, Hack..may I ask your reasoning?


I have only been in a couple, Mark, but I agree, the horrible visibility makes the car a non-starter for me.

Before I bought my first Mustang back in 2020, I was dead set on buying a Camaro. Test drove several and just could not get over the visibility issues. I’ve tried driving several since, including the newest ones and they just never bothered to fix it. I’m sure it would require a complete redesign of the car (which they obviously didn’t do, discontinuing it is easier ) but it’s just a no-go for me as well.

 

[Hack]

DIdn't expect to read that, Hack..may I ask your reasoning?

Weight and complexity. I like larger cubic inch naturally aspirated engines rather than power adders on a smaller engine.

For example, the Mercury racing SB4 is really awesome. I'd love to have one of those in something with a manual transaxle. It weighs about 500 lbs compared to the Predator 625 lbs. The 6.5 liter Ferrari NA V12 engines are sweet IMO as well, but who's going to engine swap something like that? I sure don't have the $$.

 

[Epiphany]

Alpha chassis, in terms of performance potential, is indeed superior to the S550/S650. Sadly, that didn't correlate into spectacular sales numbers. RIP mullet lovers.

 

[JetGray_Mach1]

Alpha chassis, in terms of performance potential, is indeed superior to the S550/S650. Sadly, that didn't correlate into spectacular sales numbers. RIP mullet lovers.

Reminds me of this motor trend episode

 

[Inthehighdesert]

I‘d love to have a Z/28. Very cool car.

Reminds me of this motor trend episode

 

[Hack]

Alpha chassis, in terms of performance potential, is indeed superior to the S550/S650. Sadly, that didn't correlate into spectacular sales numbers. RIP mullet lovers.

I'm not sure why people continue to say this. What exactly is superior about the Alpha chassis? Is a chassis really superior if it costs more to manufacture and doesn't produce better lap times?

If you compare a S550/650 to a GM Alpha chassis product - if they make similar power and have tires with similar treadwear on them, they produce similar lap times.

Indeed the Dark Horse is quicker around Throttle House's track than the ZL1 1LE. Yes this is a small track, but both cars have very sticky tires and I would say the ZL1 1LE even has stiffer suspension than the DH. It certainly makes more power. Based on a quick google search I believe it even weighs less than the DH. To me, those results cast doubt on whether the Alpha chassis is superior.

With regards to sales, I think GM prioritized performance over livability. Most people say they want performance, but they also want to enjoy driving the car. GM put stiff suspension on the Camaro - even basic models like my LT1 are sprung similarly to the GT350. And 20 inch wheels with run on flat tires are a perfect recipe for a harsh ride.

 

[Epiphany]

We've discussed this a number of times over the years. It's pretty simple. Alpha is stiffer and lighter. It isn't any more complicated than that.

The above has nothing to do with tires, engines, etc.

 

[Inthehighdesert]

I’ve missed those. Can you give me the cliff notes version. Stiffness is relative to particular setup. But whats the difference in weight. We talking 5%, 10%, etc.

We've discussed this a number of times over the years. It's pretty simple. Alpha is stiffer and lighter. It isn't any more complicated than that.

The above has nothing to do with tires, engines, etc.

 

[Epiphany]

CFTP is ~150lbs heavier than a ZL1 1LE. Stiffness can be calculated and compared across different vehicles. Some good, dry reading here. Cliffs...some have said it better than I could.

Most platforms these days tend to do a bottom-up approach to platform development: for instance, BMW CLAR was designed with the regular 3, 5, 7, et. al series in mind, then those designs were taken by the M teams and souped up to create the performance models. The Camaro's two main rivals are both among the most dramatic case studies of this. S550 (and S650 for that matter) is a heavily-updated version of the D2C platform that underpinned the S197 Mustang, which itself is derived from the DEW platform that underpinned various full-size cars in the early 2000s. The Challenger's LA platform is a modification of the 2004 LX platform to take an 8-speed transmission, and that traces its origins to the W220 E-class.

The Alpha platform engineers took the opposite: they started with the goal of developing a platform for the 2013 ATS-V that would give it a 50-50 weight distribution, then worked backwards to create the cheaper trims of that car. The leg-up that platform gave the 6th-gen Camaro would be the handling equivalent of making the LT1 the base engine without raising the price. Ford deserves some commendation for getting this far on what originally underpinned such handling disasters as the 11th generation Thunderbird and Lincoln LS, but Dodge did the arguably-smarter thing by just not caring about handling, since they were never going to win against the Camaro.

The S550 platform is a bespoke RWD platform for the Mustang, compromised by cost due to that and in respect to it's market segment/price point. Because of this, it has to use cheaper materials/cheaper to process materials, meaning more steel. The rear suspension takes a page out of Ford's pre-existing SUV IRS book - which is not designed for high performance dynamics in mind (more ride and comfort, cost and simplicity thing). The front suspension is nothing that particular to the S550 and benchmarked to many other cars (BMW, Mercedes, Camaro, etc). Rolling chassis compared to rolling chassis, the Alpha and S550 are more-less equals.

The Alpha platform is a RWD platform specifically designed for sporty, performance and luxury vehicles and not bespoke to one car model (ATS, CTS, Camaro). The platform is not a compromise and designed, specifically, ground up for the purpose. There is extensive use of various alloys and composites to help with light-weighting and extra bracing to help overall package stiffening. The suspension (front and rear) is an evolution away from the Zeta platform stuff (Commodore, Caprice, 5th Gen Camaro) and a benchmark with BMW and Mercedes (front and rear).

The S550 is not a bad platform, but it is compromised more due to the pressures of the Mustang being a vehicle very different than the rest of Fords (less accruing of costs and pressure to a price point).

I've had a GT350 up on one lift and a SS 1LE up on a lift next to each other. Going back and forth comparing the two, you quickly see GM's use of lighter weight materials and components from front to rear. Beyond that, GM was well ahead of Ford with things like Magneride, rev matching, etc. For those that favored Chevrolet over Ford, they got a hell of a value as well as a bit more choice (manual or an auto). All that said, I still prefer the Ford but I hated to see the Camaro go away. Gm did a damn good job if you wanted hardcore performance at a great price.

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