Whipple Time

[Jmeo]

God I wish the was a "block" list


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[Grim_Reaper]

Ignore List Feature

God I wish the was a "block" list


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I just added him to my ignore list so I don't have to see his posts.

To do this: Click his name to go to his profile, under his name is "User List", click that and "add to ignore list".

Bam no more Process

(you will still see messages containing quotes from him though when other quote him to reply)

 

[Whipple SC]

Went one step further, from our friends at Dyno Jet: Any gear other than 1:1 will show some amount less power due to the fact that power is being used to accelerate the drivetrain, engine internals, tires, etc at an faster or slower rate, using mechanical advantage. This mechanical advantage also increases frictional loads which further reduces the power to the wheels.

Also, a dyno graph to show the difference in multiple gears....

 

[Jmeo]

I'm sure it's exactly what he wants.

I didn't realize there was an ignore list so thanks for the info. I'm sure that list will grow.

From this point out I'm just done commenting or caring about posts like his. He might think he's "debating" but it's actually quite the opposite and is adding absolutely nothing. We all know he's fishing, not debating.


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[Chameleon]

This thing is absolutely amazing. Runs beautiful! Whipple did an amazing job with their tune and Tasca did a top notch install. I couldn't be happier.



Jaime


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Very nice Jaime!



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[phunk]

Went one step further, from our friends at Dyno Jet: Any gear other than 1:1 will show some amount less power due to the fact that power is being used to accelerate the drivetrain, engine internals, tires, etc at an faster or slower rate, using mechanical advantage. This mechanical advantage also increases frictional loads which further reduces the power to the wheels.

Also, a dyno graph to show the difference in multiple gears....

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing. This definitely overrules my initial feelings on it. I admit to never have really looked for it, and just never really noticed it I suppose.

 

[Process]

Not to beat a dead horse here, but I took a few minutes of my day to show you, actual facts.

2012 5.0L Boss 302, 100% stock (no track key), 91-octane. 3 minutes between runs, 5th gear being the last run. Notice the TRQ difference......

So, are you using a tach pickup or using an estimate?

Why is HP/TQ not crossing at 5252? This graph is off. This is using an estimation. Each run is crossing at different points

 

[Process]

Went one step further, from our friends at Dyno Jet: Any gear other than 1:1 will show some amount less power due to the fact that power is being used to accelerate the drivetrain, engine internals, tires, etc at an faster or slower rate, using mechanical advantage. This mechanical advantage also increases frictional loads which further reduces the power to the wheels.

Also, a dyno graph to show the difference in multiple gears....

Since this was at a diesel place, was this a turbo car/diesel truck per chance? Turbos load differently than SC and NA cars by gear. It's also showing against speed, so how are you calculating torque?

 

[phunk]

So, are you using a tach pickup or using an estimate?

Why is HP/TQ not crossing at 5252? This graph is off. This is using an estimation. Each run is crossing at different points

They do cross at 5252, as you know they absolutely must mathematically. Any time they do not appear to on a graph, it's because the scaling is different. Look at the vertical axis values at both sides

 

[Process]

They do cross at 5252, as you know they absolutely must mathematically. Any time they do not appear to on a graph, it's because the scaling is different. Look at the vertical axis values at both sides

Edit: I see the different scales, wow is that weird, HP and TQ on different ones.

Also what is the analog input? IAT in C?

There is way too many variables, just because of two different gears. Looks like there is also an IAT difference that can also be causing a difference.

Correlation does not mean causation.

On a stock Boss 302 Calibration which I am looking at right in front of me (silver key), for every 10* in IAT temp it will pull 1* of timing over 100*F, In the ECT (Engine Coolant Temp) over 180*F it pulls 6% of the value in the spark correction table. I'm not showing the silver bullet to prove why, but giving you more variables to consider. Gear ratio could be the reason, transmission gear could be, IAT and ECT correction can be as well. Hell, from the information given we could say vehicle paint color could be a reason because you can't correlate anything to one particular value especially with back to back pulls.



Temps can go up, oil gets thinner, hp goes up. Temps can go up, and spark correction can kick in, and hp goes down.

A dyno measure HP, and back calculates ENGINE torque via tach pickup.

Here's some actual math proving this above statement and not some random dyno pulls. It shows how a gear is a torque multiplier at the tire, but does not affect engine torque, which is what a dyno displays.
http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Drive/Gear_Efficiency.html

Also at the bottom are some calculations using real world examples

 

[Whipple SC]

Edit: I see the different scales, wow is that weird, HP and TQ on different ones.

Also what is the analog input? IAT in C?

There is way too many variables, just because of two different gears. Looks like there is also an IAT difference that can also be causing a difference.

Correlation does not mean causation.

On a stock Boss 302 Calibration which I am looking at right in front of me (silver key), for every 10* in IAT temp it will pull 1* of timing over 100*F, In the ECT (Engine Coolant Temp) over 180*F it pulls 6% of the value in the spark correction table. I'm not showing the silver bullet to prove why, but giving you more variables to consider. Gear ratio could be the reason, transmission gear could be, IAT and ECT correction can be as well. Hell, from the information given we could say vehicle paint color could be a reason because you can't correlate anything to one particular value especially with back to back pulls.



Temps can go up, oil gets thinner, hp goes up. Temps can go up, and spark correction can kick in, and hp goes down.

A dyno measure HP, and back calculates ENGINE torque via tach pickup.

Here's some actual math proving this above statement and not some random dyno pulls. It shows how a gear is a torque multiplier at the tire, but does not affect engine torque, which is what a dyno displays.
http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Drive/Gear_Efficiency.html

Also at the bottom are some calculations using real world examples

The latest DJ software does this auto scaling and you have to manually adjust to make them identical. This is real world, back to back to back to back.

You can keep arguing. These dyno pulls are with identical conditions. I've got 10 of them, all repeat within 1%. According to your info, the 5th gear would be lower as the longer pull would increase temps, yet it's not. Yet this was just a simple test, I've got thousands of others. I've got over 500 pulls on the 15 Mustang alone, many to 200mph through the gears.

I'll state this for the last time, this is not my first rodeo, kinda do this for a living and I've had this dyno for over 15 years. This is extremely common and been a topic of many discussions.

We can agree that you disagree with me and Dynojet. I would recommend performing your own test, as I'm done arguing about this topic.

 

[Process]

The latest DJ software does this auto scaling and you have to manually adjust to make them identical. This is real world, back to back to back to back.

You can keep arguing. These dyno pulls are with identical conditions. I've got 10 of them, all repeat within 1%. According to your info, the 5th gear would be lower as the longer pull would increase temps, yet it's not. Yet this was just a simple test, I've got thousands of others. I've got over 500 pulls on the 15 Mustang alone, many to 200mph through the gears.

I'll state this for the last time, this is not my first rodeo, kinda do this for a living and I've had this dyno for over 15 years. This is extremely common and been a topic of many discussions.

We can agree that you disagree with me and Dynojet. I would recommend performing your own test, as I'm done arguing about this topic.

I've just shown you the math and science behind how a dyno works, how gears affect hp output as a torque multiplier, and the other variables by displaying the actual tables within the tune that can affect a car with back to back pulls within minutes of one another.

A dyno measures hp at the wheels, then back calculates engine torque which is what gets displayed on your graphs. Gears (rear and transmission) only affect a torque rating at the wheels after power has been put through the drivetrain.

Until you can show me two runs in two different gears with all variables the exact same, IAT, ECT etc, as well as all other global and local spark modifiers as constant, your graphs are not evidence. Now in my example, yes 5th gear has the potential to be a lower readout, if the IAT, ECT and any other modifier is beyond the timing pull thresh hold. This can also be for a 4th gear run, or a 3rd gear run etc etc.

I've posted the calculations, feel free and debate the math. This isn't my first rodeo either, but guess what, no matter how much experience you have, doesn't mean you're not prone to mistakes nor are you the final authority on how everything works in the automotive world. I have no doubts you're a smart person with a lot of experience under your belt, but unfortunately you are incorrect in this matter.

My original question was fairly simple and innocent. With the new redesigned 2.9 blower I have noticed wide splits between HP/TQ that has been usually uncharacteristic of your previous products on the last generation running the whipple supplied tune. My question was why? You answered, it was due to a 4th gear dyno, and I debunked that with the mathematic principles of how gears affect the drivetrain readouts, how a dynojet calculates Wheel HP and Engine torque, as well as posted the calibration file that displayed the "usual suspect" timing multiplier settings for IAT, I can also post ECT if you like. So again I am asking, why?

I also doubt dynojet will disagree with me on how their dynos work, I am telling you from how they describe how their dynos work, so it's not my opinion, it's theirs. Again, everything I am stating only applies to a manual transmission.

 

[Ajax]

I really wish the strut bar could be reinstalled after the whipple install. How close is the whipple to the hood after install? Is there room for a modified strut bar?

 

[Ajax]

And Congrats Jmeo. Very nice.

 

[Jmeo]

I really wish the strut bar could be reinstalled after the whipple install. How close is the whipple to the hood after install? Is there room for a modified strut bar?

No room what so ever lol. I have a impression of a small part of the SC on the hood insulation lol.


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