Totaled - RIP My Love

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Gatorac
Close but not quite. Close throttle, weight transfer to front tires and off of back tires. Front tires get traction and rear tires lose the rest of the grip and you have now sealed your fate that you will spin. You can't lift completely off the gas in a throttle on oversteer situation.

YES you can, and should.

I hate reading posts like this giving bad information that feed the misunderstanding that staying in the throttle and "riding it out" by keeping weight on the rear is the best thing to do -because it's not.

The key word in Gator's response is "completely". Lift completely, and the car will decelerate because of engine compression braking effects - which act only on a Mustang's rear tires. Now you have the situation where the rear tires that are already being used essentially to their max are being asked to do even more, and with less vertical load on them to work with because of forward load transfer from that deceleration. Which they can't and won't do.

You need to lift, but only as far as "neutral throttle", where you're not adding any forward (on-throttle, accelerating) or rearward (fully closed throttle, decelerating) forces. That keeps the full static weight % on those rear tires and lets the rear tires use all of the resulting grip laterally which is the best you can do for them.


Yes, you do have to be ready for the opposite-direction spin. But if the spin in the first direction is unrecoverable, the advice is usually "both feet in", or on the brake and clutch pedals so that you'll at least slide to a stop in a reasonably straight line with the engine still running. That was always the advice for cars without ABS, I'm not sure if it works as well with cars that do have ABS but I don't have any better suggestions.


Norm

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[Norm Peterson]

I'm guessing more than 95% of crashes caused by "The tyres let go" are actually "I turned in too quickly", "I applied too much throttle before the apex" or "I've seen it at Cars and Coffee and thought I could do it". In the end the driver took an action that made the outside rear tyre exceed 100% of the available grip.

Just the boldfaced part covers nearly all of your "95%", at least on this side of the pond.

Way too many Mustang (and Camaro) drivers don't even know what "fine throttle modulation" is, never mind develop the discipline to use it when appropriate. That means when it's raining, snowing, on summer tires in the cold, or when you're pushing the limits in the dry. Stomp, stab, steer, and hope is not a workable alternative.


FWIW, I've done track day sessions in absolute downpours, and at other track days temperatures started out in the high 30°'s and low 40°'s F on both Michelins (PSS) and Goodyears (Asymmetrics). You can't work the throttle the same way you might when the traffic light goes green or a Camaro comes up beside your door and challenges you. You just can't.


Norm

 

[ForTheHordeKT]

Shit man that blows. I'm not going to knock you, I had a similar experience in the beginning of November. I'll say I was being a jackass, I'm leaving my apartments and going down a little side road leading out to the main road, getting ready for a left-hand turn. Light turns yellow, and my mind goes "Fuck you, light! We're doing this!" I took that thing in 3rd gear and gave it some gas, and my rear end breaks loose. I don't make a habit of this kind of fuckery, but I've done it once or twice just fine when it was warmer. This time my rear end broke loose and I fishtailed one way, then corrected the other way. Stayed calm, just let off the gas and pushed in the clutch. Thanked christ that I didn't go over to the other side of the road or that all the people waiting at the light behind me were just sitting there looking at the dumbass losing control in the mustang making a left at the light in front of them. Lesson learned; respect the cold temps. I doubt I'll do much "spirited" driving in the cold, we hadn't even had our first snow yet so no wet or ice yet. It took that to put a healthy amount of respect in me lol. "With great power comes great responsibility." is a good quote to apply, and I'm glad in my case it only resulted in my ego being hurt while I felt like the biggest tool on the road that day.

I can't wait to ditch these tires but the cheap side of me wants to wear them down good and plenty first. But also, I shall be refraining from the fuckery and being quite mindful of what can happen in the right conditions. If you stay calm and do the right things sure you can pull out of it, but that's no reason to put yourself in the situation to begin with.

 

[Am1nal]

I personally feel like the Pirellis are very slick too.

 

[KV Racing]

Granted I only have an EB, but as soon as they are wore out I will be putting something different on the car.
The first morning after it had been in the low 20's all night, when I left for work I pulled out of the driveway, went 30 yards to the stop sign, stopped, no one was coming so I accelerated slower than normal away from the sign while turning to the left not sure what the "summer tires" were going to do. I was barely applying any throttle, and the TC was on. The ass of the car stepped out so quick it really surprised me. And not just a little either, but full on sideways in the middle of the road. Ever since then I drive like a grandma first thing on cold mornings until I put a few miles on them, and even then I'm still really cautious. When it gets cold and stays cold all day I'll probably park the car and drive my trusty old '93 Lightning.

 

[bluebeastsrt]

Tires, driving to fast, only the OP knows what happened. Sucked you wrecked a nice car but my question is. What's the buy back on that car? You could part that out and make a fortune!

 

[ForTehNguyen]

another reason to get rid of the trashtastic pirellis for better tires, one less thing to worry about

 

[mojo2008]

Remember here in the Midwest...66F don't mean its warm. It's is cold enough for the Pirellis to not grip.

Pretty sure 66F is 66F no matter where you are. Seriously though, sorry for your misfortune.

 

[mojo2008]

Pretty sure 66F is 66F no matter where you are. Seriously though, sorry for your misfortune.

This post is a little older than I realized. :headbonk:

 

[Norm Peterson]

so I accelerated slower than normal away from the sign while turning to the left not sure what the "summer tires" were going to do. I was barely applying any throttle, and the TC was on. The ass of the car stepped out so quick it really surprised me.

Caught the TC nanny napping, too.

Think on that ↑↑↑ for a minute, people.

This post is a little older than I realized. :headbonk:

Still a pertinent topic given the time of year it is.


Norm

 

[Ecoboosted]

Man so sorry to hear of your car. I hated the PZero's. I got new tires about a month ago. So glad to get rid of the shit P Zero's.

 

[Hack]

Caught the TC nanny napping, too.

Think on that ↑↑↑ for a minute, people.



Still a pertinent topic given the time of year it is.


Norm

Definitely worth considering. I had a similar thing happen on a metal expansion joint on a bridge I cross regularly. With the snow tires, the car can go from under control to significantly out of shape so quickly that the normal setting of traction control won't save you. I was fortunate I had enough room that I didn't hit the concrete divider. Rather than being more careful, I started using the weather mode on my GT350 on bad days. Weather mode makes a huge difference by not allowing much if any wheel spin prior to kicking in.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Weather mode makes a huge difference by not allowing much if any wheel spin prior to kicking in.

This is something I can appreciate especially when there's potentially more torque available and deeper axle gearing than what I've got in my '08.

Sort of analogous to the revision I once did to slow down the early opening rate on a cable-operated EFI system, actually.


Norm

 

[Enoch]

I really don't get all the hate on the pirellis....:shrug:

It's around 35f here at the moment, cold n damp... I went for a 135 Mike trip along some of the twistiest, cold, damp roads in N Wales yesterday...

Not even a hint of wheel spin, or sliding... the throttle pedal works both ways

Maybe I should do the lottery, I must be lucky to have stayed alive

 

[TexArmageddon]

Man who resurrected this thread? My answer still hasn't changed...HE F'd up not the tires.

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