Thermostat question

[Higgs Boson]

Nice try!!!.Yes timing will add quite a bit of hp,however that wont happen on a stock car just by changing the tstat.Unless u drive in above 100 degree temps everyday doing wot pulls.Genius!!!!.

This post just shows your "lack of information" regarding this topic. Better go back to the Cosmetics section and ask about which microfiber towel is best.

Guess, what genius, I live in Texas...It's hot. I lived in Maryland for 2.5 years and it's horrible there, I can understand why you are so upset....let's pinpoint the real issue here. You are in MD. Now I feel bad. How can I help?

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[Tommy V]

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Cool your jets, this is a friendly discussion with people trying to provide valid and relevant information to justify this product. The factory mustang ECU, even with stock calibration, will add and retard timing based on many different factors. Octane, IAT, load, ECT, etc...

What Higgs and Mark are getting at, is there is a specific table that will advance and retard igntion advance based on engine coolant temperatures. Mark gave us a preview from his VCM editor displaying these tables. This is a factory table. Which means, a BONE STOCK car will advance timing based on ECTs. Did you know that the factory ignition advance tables actually have a fairly low borderline spark limit but the knock sensor will add timing as long as there is no knock present and based on all of the other conditions I previously mentioned. That being said, it is very likely that the .5-1.3* of ignition advance Mark previously mentioned is very possible for a BONE STOCK tune to advance timing with engine coolant temps dropping 10-15 degrees below the factory thermostat ECT target.

You may not know how to tune or much about these ECUs, but we do...

Anybody can read an artical and quote someone eles knowledge,so since u know so much coke give me a class,i would love that.The same guys talking crap about what they know but bring their car to me because they cant fix it.Magazine mechanics.

 

[Higgs Boson]

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Anybody can read an artical and quote someone eles knowledge,so since u know so much coke give me a class,i would love that.The same guys talking crap about what they know but bring their car to me because they cant fix it.Magazine mechanics.

You're in the wrong place if you think that's who you're talking to.

 

[Tommy V]

This post just shows your "lack of information" regarding this topic. Better go back to the Cosmetics section and ask about which microfiber towel is best.

Guess, what genius, I live in Texas...It's hot. I lived in Maryland for 2.5 years and it's horrible there, I can understand why you are so upset....let's pinpoint the real issue here. You are in MD. Now I feel bad. How can I help?

Oooh Texas wow i spent 6 years their in the milatary,not that impressed!!!!.

 

[Jeff's FRC]

Anyone else reading this thinking what a total douche canoe this Tommy V character is?

 

[markmurfie]

I copied this as I didn't feel like typing.

"If you pass a heated liquid through a cooler, it cools down. If you pass it through too quickly, it won't cool down as much. This is the job of the thermostat, it controls how quickly the heated water goes through the radiator by controlling how much goes through. Remove that and you have full flow through the radiator at all times, which is too fast and will cause less heat loss."

Proving any one can read articles and quote them and still be right.


I'm not saying remove your tstat. I'm saying use a lower tempature tstat. The 170 probably works better than the 160 for the simple fact that it maintains optimal flow rates. From my experience with the 170 and many others it lowers CHT and therefore ECT. That's a fact not some thing I read in a magazine. Trust me you wouldn't touch any of my cars, or computers.

I was mistaken some guys back then removed them. Then they found drilling holes it them worked better

 

[Tommy V]

I copied this as I didn't feel like typing.

"If you pass a heated liquid through a cooler, it cools down. If you pass it through too quickly, it won't cool down as much. This is the job of the thermostat, it controls how quickly the heated water goes through the radiator by controlling how much goes through. Remove that and you have full flow through the radiator at all times, which is too fast and will cause less heat loss."

I'm not saying remove your tstat. I'm saying use a lower tempature tstat. The 170 probably works better than the 160 for the simple fact that it maintains optimal flow rates. From my experience with the 170 and many others it lowers CHT and therefore ECT. That's a fact not some thing I read in a magazine. Trust me you wouldn't touch any of my cars, or computers.

I was mistaken some guys back then removed them. Then they found drilling holes it them worked better

Took u awhile to goggle that lol,u typed alot of other things.I never said u made a statement saying remove the tstat,i asked u a question about heat exchange and u found an article about it instead of using your own words.So again put that !70 tstat in your car and enjoy all that new found hp.Im done.

 

[markmurfie]

Took u awhile to goggle that lol,u typed alot of other things.I never said u made a statement saying remove the tstat,i asked u a question about heat exchange and u found an article about it instead of using your own words.So again put that !70 tstat in your car and enjoy all that new found hp.Im done.

I had to find a simple enough explanation that people such as yourself could understand. 20 min isn't to bad considering the challenge.

 

[Higgs Boson]

Oooh Texas wow i spent 6 years their in the milatary,not that impressed!!!!.

that's because you were probably in Killeen or something. Yeah....nothing there.

My point isn't that you should be impressed, but it's nice to hear about your insecurity. My point is only what I stated.....Texas is hot. You want to talk about going WOT in 100 degree weather, yeah it happens all the time.

 

[Higgs Boson]

Took u awhile to goggle that lol,u typed alot of other things.I never said u made a statement saying remove the tstat,i asked u a question about heat exchange and u found an article about it instead of using your own words.So again put that !70 tstat in your car and enjoy all that new found hp.Im done.

come on, you're the life of the party, we are enjoying your posts, they are so well written.

 

[dubster99]

They're, there, their...hmmmmm

 

[kris5597]

This whole conversation escalated quickly lol. I find it quite funny, this guy thinks he knows who we are, what we do, and have done.

I don't have to explain myself, past experiences, and accomplishments. We have all provided valid information why a damn thermostat seems to be worth while. I approached this thread with my knowledge and experience, as always, we three discussed, provided valid information, determined the answer and boom. BUY A DAMN 170* THERMOSTAT, its worth it. I have one on order, I will do a before and after install and datalog the information and will post about it in this thread...

Kris

 

[sigintel]

"If you pass a heated liquid through a cooler, it cools down. If you pass it through too quickly, it won't cool down as much. This is the job of the thermostat, it controls how quickly the heated water goes through the radiator by controlling how much goes through. Remove that and you have full flow through the radiator at all times, which is too fast and will cause less heat loss."

:faint:
NOOOO! lol.. I will attempt a positive and constructive response.

"full flow through the radiator at all times, which is too fast and will cause less heat loss."

No dude. Please don't spread this BS around or Ill have to call in the Higgs Boson :eyebulge:. We are all on same team trying to understand our cars and thermodynamics but this statement is bunk.
Where did you get that quote from?:barf:

opcorn:
Quick thermodynamics clarification:
Heat and Temperature are two different concepts.

Heat == Thermal Energy == the total energy of a mass.
Temperature is average molecular motion energy.

An iceberg has more thermal energy than a single lit match.:eyebulge:

HeatVsTemp
what-is-thermal-energy
[ame="[MEDIA=youtube]wTi3Hn09OBs[/MEDIA]"]

Temperature does not "flow".
Only thermal energy "flows".

Google "temperature flow": not even a concept.
heat flow

temperature flow is not a valid concept



Thermal energy flow is measured in Watts or Horsepower:
1 hp = 745.699872 W
https://www.google.com/search?q=wat...57.2582j0j8&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8

Thermal energy does not flow unless there is a difference in temperatures.
Greater difference == great thermal flow.

For a constant ambient air temperature of 80F:
If you have 80F coolant and flow 0 or 1000 or 1000000 gph thru a radiator, your thermal flow will always be 0. Yup zero, zilch, nada, nothing.
No temperature difference, no thermal (heat) flow.

In this case, assuming 80F fixed ambient conditions, you must change the temperature of the coolant thru the radiator. The higher the temperature in the coolant, the more Thermal Energy(waste Heat)(Watts)(Horsepower) you can get rid of.
Now, if you suddenly stop the flow thru the radiator, the coolant in the radiator will eventually match the ambient temperature of 80F. As the temperatures in ambient and coolant equalizes to 80F, the rate of thermal energy flow reaches 0!
So we are back at 0 temperature differential == 0 thermal energy flow (0 heat flow).

So when the temperature differential goes to 0, the heat flow goes to 0.

0 temperature differential = 0 thermal energy flow = 0 HP = 0 W

If you then very very slowly increase flow, the coolant coming out will be close to ambient 80F temperature. THIS IS BAD! lol..
Thus, getting the coolant as close to ambient as possible requires decreasing the coolant fluid flow as close as possible to 0: and thus the thermal flow to 0!
0 fluid flow = 0 thermal (heat) flow.

Thus higher coolant flow = higher thermal energy flow.
Maximum thermal flow from engine to ambient is NOT with lowest exit temperature from cold side of radiator!
Maximum thermal flow from engine to ambient is with HIGHEST coolant temperature possible entering the radiator. After you achieve this, the engine will COOL dramatically because it can not generate enough waste heat to maintain the high coolant temperatures!

If you take the thermostat out, coolant temperatures become purely based on the amount of waste heat generated. Waste heat is purely a function of total HP generated.

I have tested running WITHOUT a thermostat and it takes forever to get up to temperature and requires excess fuel and deposits more carbon on the plugs. Great for horsepower in the short run, but not sustainable unless you like carbon deposits acting like glow plugs causing detonation.
And yes, CHT and coolant temperatures where way down in the 136F range after 15 minutes of idling and the cats were pretty warm even at idle with all the unburned gas coming thru. I figure 10 minutes of WOT blasts in that condition would probably overheat the crap out of the cats.

The purpose of thermostats are to artificially limit the flow of coolant and thus the thermal flow AWAY from the engine to keep the engine operating at a minimum temperature range. This keeps the oil and mechanical systems operating at their designed operating temperature and avoids excess thermal cycling.

Don't take my word for it. Go pull your tstat and grab several beers, a pencil and set your dash to gauge mode. Watch your CHT.
When I did this, the CHTs stayed way too low for sudden WOT blasts.
I concluded by the 3rd beer that no tstat might be a great way to burn the cats out, bust the oil pump at WOT, foul the plugs, and waste a bunch of gas.
:cheers:

mod, thread cleanup?

 

[markmurfie]

If they clean that up then they have to clean up everything Tommy was saying. Then people can't see both sides of the argument and draw their own conclusion.

Sarcasm doesn't come across in writing. I accepted the challenge of anyone can read articles and quote them. I did it based on his side of the arguement.

I'm confused what is the pencil for?

You could modify your tune to fix the excess fueling when the coolant temps are low. Another thing old timers did with a screw driver on their carburetor... Or resizing jets.

Run a thinner oil if you are worried about the oil pump. 5w20 is pretty thin already imo.

 

[sigintel]

nuke it all

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