The Fate on the ICE

[ice445]

Oh, but for the time being it does have to be that way, because there simply isn't any other comparable alternative. EVs are currently just a lousy workaround that just happens to work for some; they are not a viable alternative.

Well *technically*, individual rates of car ownership don't need to be as high as they are. If there was better public transit, for example. But that's socialist talk.

With that said, cars weren't a viable alternative to the horse for a while either. It took time for the infrastructure to catch up. Once upon a time the thing we take for granted, roads, weren't built for cars, and you'd regularly get stuck.

I dunno, I guess I don't own an EV to say for certain, but even if I couldn't charge at my house, I *could* charge at work and never have to visit a gas station again. Couple that with lower maintenance costs, and I think EV's are already viable. The vast majority of car owners rarely leave their urban area, so the road trip argument affects such a small percentage of users. Amusingly, I am in that small percent so I'm going to run gas as long as possible.

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[Hack]

Wow, that's weird. I didn't know we lived and functioned directly in the jet stream. I'm not sure if you're being intentionally obtuse or have the false idea that an EV world has just as much pollution as one with gas cars, which is just factually not true. Not sure how else to frame that. An EV can have upwards of 90% efficiency, a gas engine at best can do 40%. An EV can be powered by clean energy, or "dirty" energy that's still far more efficient than a gas engine. A natural gas plant is almost twice as efficient as the average combustion engine, AND has the bonus of scrubbing equipment to capture particulates, something that the GDI motors of today lack.

So to simplify, an EV world has power plants far away from urban centers polluting over a much wider area compared to the literal blanket of gas engine cars we currently have in our society. Gas cars are constantly polluting basically every square inch of urban area, at all times you're probably breathing some of the byproducts. Is it a big deal necessarily? No, but why would anyone want that if it didn't have to be that way? And that's completely ignoring the fact that an EV can be entirely powered by energy sources that are renewable or ones that don't pollute the air (nuclear). EV battery packs also aren't chemically destroyed over their life time, it's not economical now but it's possible to recycle the expensive elements. How do you recycle a gallon of gasoline after it's burned? Oh right, it's just "gone" forever, floating in the atmosphere for hundreds of years. The useful lifetime to get that back into its original form is well beyond generations of humans.

I could go on but if you don't get what I'm saying, then there's not much to discuss. I obviously love gas cars like everyone else on here, but come on now.

If you really think that way then why do you own a Mustang? You should be walking to work.
I think the equations of what is better are a lot more complex.

• It takes a lot of energy to build a new car, and electrics don't last like ICEs.
• Electrics cost more to build, which means they pollute more from day 1 and it takes them years of use before they catch up to an ICE in net emissions.
• The energy required to build infrastructure for electric vehicles will cost a lot of money and increase pollution.
• I think that what comes out of the ICE tailpipe is far less noxious than what you are saying.
• And I care about lower income people too. I don't want the US to become like many other countries where most people can't afford a car.

 

[ice445]

If you really think that way then why do you own a Mustang? You should be walking to work.
I think the equations of what is better are a lot more complex.

• It takes a lot of energy to build a new car, and electrics don't last like ICEs.
• Electrics cost more to build, which means they pollute more from day 1 and it takes them years of use before they catch up to an ICE in net emissions.
• The energy required to build infrastructure for electric vehicles will cost a lot of money and increase pollution.
• I think that what comes out of the ICE tailpipe is far less noxious than what you are saying.
• And I care about lower income people too. I don't want the US to become like many other countries where most people can't afford a car.

Well for starters, I can appreciate a superior technology without actually wanting to use it. It's a lot like preferring playing older video games while appreciating the graphics of newer ones. Some tangibles are lost when technology advances, ones that I may appreciate. A noisy, rwd V8 with a manual transmission is one of life's great pleasures.

Secondly, let's consider some of your counter points. I'm fully aware that there are nuances that I glossed over, and the superior nature of EV's is very much debatable, which is what we're doing here.

So, EV's cost more to build. That is correct. But they cost *less* to maintain. Think of how many gallons of oil a ICE car goes through in a lifetime. EV's still use things like coolant and greases for moving parts, but there's less maintenance overall. And them not lasting is debatable. The data I've seen shows a battery pack being totally servicable for 10 years minimum, which is reasonably comparable to a modern ICE car lifespan, especially if an economical way to recycle battery packs comes about.

The net emissions argument is pretty variable, but the ICE car will always overtake an EV in total emissions. How fast this occurs depends on how the local grid is powered. The ICE car argument always seems to escape the emission cost of oil extraction and refining too, in most of the math I've seen. I guess we can accept it as a given, but in that case you can accept the lithium/cobalt mining for the EV batteries as a given too, since so many of our modern electronics use the same types of batteries. Just smaller ones.

Energy cost of infrastructure is always increasing, and is something that we have to think about regardless of what will power our future vehicles. Unless we plan on stopping growth entirely. It costs energy to make energy and distribute it. If the ratios get out of whack, bad things happen. Oil is a finite resource, and the closer you get to a 1:1 ratio from extraction to output, the more favorable alternative forms of motive power become. This isn't likely to be an issue in our lifetime, but at some point this is a piper that has to be paid. Let's consider an often ignored aspect of ICE cars, and this is the transportation of petrol to filling stations. That's a lot of emissions just to allow you to get the juice you need. Transmission lines are expensive to build, but they don't require millions of gallons of diesel worth of upkeep every year.

ICE cars are dirty. They're a lot LESS dirty than they were even 30 years ago, but they're still dirty. Think of all the old cars out there leaking oil, fuel, and coolant all over the place. The catalytic converters capture a lot of the bad stuff, yeah. But they're not 100% efficient. On top of that, the widescale adoption of direct injection has actually increased the amount of PM2.5 and soot that gets expelled. That's a thick pollutant and a big smog contributor. Diesels have the same problem, even with all the emissions bullshit strapped to them, you can't get rid of all of it. It's a small amount until you multiply it by millions. Even if we have to build hundreds of new power plants, you're still polluting less because of better overall efficiency, and that pollution isn't constantly being emitted around the places we live. Even better if we can ever get cost effective renewable power sources.


Tl;dr = I like the potential of EV to solve some issues that are often overlooked in modern society. I don't want to buy one though. I want to burn dino juice until I'm literally not allowed or priced out of it. I feel like that's a pretty fair opinion.

 

[Hack]

Well for starters, I can appreciate a superior technology without actually wanting to use it. It's a lot like preferring playing older video games while appreciating the graphics of newer ones. Some tangibles are lost when technology advances, ones that I may appreciate. A noisy, rwd V8 with a manual transmission is one of life's great pleasures.

I'd like to think that I can appreciate superior technology as well. The ICE is currently superior in my opinion. It costs less to make, has a longer range, is quicker and easier to refuel, lasts longer for just a few reasons.

Secondly, let's consider some of your counter points. I'm fully aware that there are nuances that I glossed over, and the superior nature of EV's is very much debatable, which is what we're doing here.

So, EV's cost more to build. That is correct. But they cost *less* to maintain. Think of how many gallons of oil a ICE car goes through in a lifetime. EV's still use things like coolant and greases for moving parts, but there's less maintenance overall. And them not lasting is debatable. The data I've seen shows a battery pack being totally servicable for 10 years minimum, which is reasonably comparable to a modern ICE car lifespan, especially if an economical way to recycle battery packs comes about.

Yes EVs cost less to maintain - at least in the beginning. I don't think we really know the cost to maintain an EV over longer runs, because they haven't been around that long.

What service is done on a battery pack? I had the impression they are pretty much throw aways as it's too difficult and dangerous to service them.

And the AVERAGE age of a car currently on the road is somewhere around 11 or 12 years. In order to be superior an electric car needs to last 25 or 30 years with minimal service. And they currently just don't last that long without having major repairs done.

The net emissions argument is pretty variable, but the ICE car will always overtake an EV in total emissions. How fast this occurs depends on how the local grid is powered. The ICE car argument always seems to escape the emission cost of oil extraction and refining too, in most of the math I've seen. I guess we can accept it as a given, but in that case you can accept the lithium/cobalt mining for the EV batteries as a given too, since so many of our modern electronics use the same types of batteries. Just smaller ones.

The cost of oil extraction and refining is bundled within the cost of the gas you buy, so that is easily covered and it's an obvious cost of an ICE vehicle. Don't try to add it twice is my advice.

I think you are mixing cost with environmental impact, but I probably did it as well. I haven't talked about it, but I agree that open pit mining of heavy metals is not good for the environment. And neither is extracting oil from the ground. The nice thing is the US has a lot of oil reserves, but the battery components are mined elsewhere and shipped around the world, which adds to their cost. Not as big a deal for a small battery in a phone, but huge car batteries are big and heavy.

Energy cost of infrastructure is always increasing, and is something that we have to think about regardless of what will power our future vehicles. Unless we plan on stopping growth entirely. It costs energy to make energy and distribute it. If the ratios get out of whack, bad things happen. Oil is a finite resource, and the closer you get to a 1:1 ratio from extraction to output, the more favorable alternative forms of motive power become. This isn't likely to be an issue in our lifetime, but at some point this is a piper that has to be paid. Let's consider an often ignored aspect of ICE cars, and this is the transportation of petrol to filling stations. That's a lot of emissions just to allow you to get the juice you need. Transmission lines are expensive to build, but they don't require millions of gallons of diesel worth of upkeep every year.

The nice thing about the mature and superior technology of ICE is that the distribution infrastructure is already there.

ICE cars are dirty. They're a lot LESS dirty than they were even 30 years ago, but they're still dirty. Think of all the old cars out there leaking oil, fuel, and coolant all over the place. The catalytic converters capture a lot of the bad stuff, yeah. But they're not 100% efficient. On top of that, the widescale adoption of direct injection has actually increased the amount of PM2.5 and soot that gets expelled. That's a thick pollutant and a big smog contributor. Diesels have the same problem, even with all the emissions bullshit strapped to them, you can't get rid of all of it. It's a small amount until you multiply it by millions. Even if we have to build hundreds of new power plants, you're still polluting less because of better overall efficiency, and that pollution isn't constantly being emitted around the places we live. Even better if we can ever get cost effective renewable power sources.

I don't like direct injection. I think the current regs on fuel economy are mostly just causing more problems for us in the long run.

I don't think you can just say that building hundreds of new power plants will pollute less and have people believe you without evidence. We already know that cars are a small part of the total picture. They are just something that people have personal experience with and our government takes advantage of that.

Tl;dr = I like the potential of EV to solve some issues that are often overlooked in modern society. I don't want to buy one though. I want to burn dino juice until I'm literally not allowed or priced out of it. I feel like that's a pretty fair opinion.

I like the potential of EV as well. Once they invent decent batteries, EV could be great.

I just think it's a really bad idea making ICEs difficult to get when we don't have a better alternative. It will price many people out of being able to have cheap transportation.

 

[ice445]

I'd like to think that I can appreciate superior technology as well. The ICE is currently superior in my opinion. It costs less to make, has a longer range, is quicker and easier to refuel, lasts longer for just a few reasons.



Yes EVs cost less to maintain - at least in the beginning. I don't think we really know the cost to maintain an EV over longer runs, because they haven't been around that long.

What service is done on a battery pack? I had the impression they are pretty much throw aways as it's too difficult and dangerous to service them.

And the AVERAGE age of a car currently on the road is somewhere around 11 or 12 years. In order to be superior an electric car needs to last 25 or 30 years with minimal service. And they currently just don't last that long without having major repairs done.



The cost of oil extraction and refining is bundled within the cost of the gas you buy, so that is easily covered and it's an obvious cost of an ICE vehicle. Don't try to add it twice is my advice.

I think you are mixing cost with environmental impact, but I probably did it as well. I haven't talked about it, but I agree that open pit mining of heavy metals is not good for the environment. And neither is extracting oil from the ground. The nice thing is the US has a lot of oil reserves, but the battery components are mined elsewhere and shipped around the world, which adds to their cost. Not as big a deal for a small battery in a phone, but huge car batteries are big and heavy.



The nice thing about the mature and superior technology of ICE is that the distribution infrastructure is already there.



I don't like direct injection. I think the current regs on fuel economy are mostly just causing more problems for us in the long run.

I don't think you can just say that building hundreds of new power plants will pollute less and have people believe you without evidence. We already know that cars are a small part of the total picture. They are just something that people have personal experience with and our government takes advantage of that.




I like the potential of EV as well. Once they invent decent batteries, EV could be great.

I just think it's a really bad idea making ICEs difficult to get when we don't have a better alternative. It will price many people out of being able to have cheap transportation.

All fair points, although I'll correct you in that I was talking about the emissions and waste from transporting fuel, it's definitely still economical. A lot of the economics of oil are based on OPEC nations though, if they went dry things would suddenly get a lot less comfortable. Fracking and canadian shale, while plentiful, have much lower ROEI compared to easily accessible deposits.

Maintenance on EV cars is something that's hard to quanitfy, I'll give you that. But the fact that these relatively early battery packs can last 10 years without noticeable range degradation is a pretty good start. Better charging strategies can also make them last a lot longer. Keeping the pack between 10-80% at all times is ideal.

Transporting battery packs has a large carbon cost currently, that is true as well. So it's unfair of me not to count that. Transporting the "fuel" is cheaper and easier though.

My assertion on power plants being less polluting in aggregate is just based on mathematical efficiency. There's a lot of variability there. If you open 100 coal plants, the gap gets a lot more narrow. If you open 100 nuclear ones, yeah you have to store or reprocess the physical waste, but the EV leaps far ahead in terms of efficiency (and in cost lol).

And finally, you're correct that the biggest barrier to the EV as it currently sits is COST. They're far too expensive for many people to afford, even with the ridiculous subsidies (which I don't agree with). I don't agree with anyone being forced to do something that's not economical. BUT, on the flip side of that we're going to face an energy crunch eventually. So diversification right NOW is key. But that's my subjective opinion, maybe something different will happen.

The fun thing is we'll get to find out, lol. Gonna keep driving my stang in the meantime.

 

[EFI]

won’t get into the politics here but he wants fossil fuels outlawed.

I love these types of people, they bitch about something then they go out and use that very thing on a daily basis. I bet he goes home in El Paso and cranks his AC off a personal windmill right?

The same as my friend who's all against capitalism and corporations. He wants those outlawed and makes very convincing posts on social media using his Macbook Pro and iPhone 13 while sitting in Starbucks driving around a Tesla. Nothing says "eff capitalism" than purchasing very expensive luxuries.

 

[Hi-PO Stang]

I find this thread about ICE interesting , but see no mention of farmers getting rid of their ICE powered tractors. If farmers do not have to meet pollution requirements with their tractors we will not be totally free from using fossil fuels. If farmers are allowed keep using ICE powered tractors , there will be a need for gasoline for a long time. I just never hear about farmers being encouraged to switch to electric motor powered tractors.

 

[dx2]

Would farmers not be able to create their own (free) bio diesel ?

 

[ice445]

I find this thread about ICE interesting , but see no mention of farmers getting rid of their ICE powered tractors. If farmers do not have to meet pollution requirements with their tractors we will not be totally free from using fossil fuels. If farmers are allowed keep using ICE powered tractors , there will be a need for gasoline for a long time. I just never hear about farmers being encouraged to switch to electric motor powered tractors.

Petroleum based fertilizer is a bigger issue with farming than the tractors IMO. Not only that, but soil degradation is going to become a real issue in many productive lands (let alone water issues).

 

[SpeedLu]

ICE vehicles will continue to be the norm for the next 50 years. We're nowhere close to being able to support a fully EV world, despite what activists want to think.

 

[Rapid Red]

Talk about a boring car, the electric car is the poster child for that. Would not own one, even the Testicle (pun) were given to me.

As usual the lemmings walk off the cliff, at the thought of not buying fuel. Thinking (pun) some how a rechargeable car will be less expensive to own.

For some reason the 2 big ones the minds, fuel cost and ATM charges. Not one concern about 1/2 of a pay check goes for a stupid cell phone.

Awe yes it is fun to watch, I can tell you that. Has anyone mentioned, not having read this thread. No need the title was enough to light my fire.

You crash the electric, one is in serious trouble. The rescue response and the time is will take to extract the occupants becomes a real dance extending removal time .


Imagine how fast Mr Electric car owner. Will regret having to plug and unplug a car. There is a serious level of inconvenience at hand here.

Hello boss forgot to plug my car in last night >

rant over

 

[Gregs24]

If you really think that way then why do you own a Mustang? You should be walking to work.
I think the equations of what is better are a lot more complex.

• It takes a lot of energy to build a new car, and electrics don't last like ICEs.
• Electrics cost more to build, which means they pollute more from day 1 and it takes them years of use before they catch up to an ICE in net emissions.
• The energy required to build infrastructure for electric vehicles will cost a lot of money and increase pollution.
• I think that what comes out of the ICE tailpipe is far less noxious than what you are saying.
• And I care about lower income people too. I don't want the US to become like many other countries where most people can't afford a car.

You need to come up with some evidence for those statements.

Absolutely no evidence that EV's 'don't last'. Plenty of 10 year old EV's over here working fine and considering 90% of the EV is the same as an ICE car why would it be a problem ? The different bit is simpler on an EV with only one moving part.

What comes out of the tailpipe is well documented, in terms of what it contains and what it does. Why do you not agree and what evidence can you provide to confirm this ?

The last one is just rubbish. Poor people can't afford new cars no matter what they use to propel them. Old EV's depreciate like old ICE cars so they become more affordable with age. New EV's are very similar prices to ICE cars. There is now a £3000 EV being made in India which compares directly with an ICE equivalent.

I'm not having a go per se, but you can't just make statements like that without providing evidence, otherwise I could just say the sky is green and expect everyone to agree with me which is clearly ludicrous.

 

[Gregs24]

I find this thread about ICE interesting , but see no mention of farmers getting rid of their ICE powered tractors. If farmers do not have to meet pollution requirements with their tractors we will not be totally free from using fossil fuels. If farmers are allowed keep using ICE powered tractors , there will be a need for gasoline for a long time. I just never hear about farmers being encouraged to switch to electric motor powered tractors.

JCB in the UK are doing just that. Hydrogen powered plant and machinery are already at prototype and early commercial release. It really is commercially viable in the next year or two, and don't forget most farmers have their own fuel store so replacing ICE fuel store with a hydrogen tank is easy enough.

 

[Gregs24]

Would farmers not be able to create their own (free) bio diesel ?

It wouldn't be free - you still have to grow the crop, which costs money, and then convert that crop into a fuel that could be used but it certainly is a potential route to keeping ICE engines going.

 

[Gregs24]

Talk about a boring car, the electric car is the poster child for that. Would not own one, even the Testicle (pun) were given to me.

As usual the lemmings walk off the cliff, at the thought of not buying fuel. Thinking (pun) some how a rechargeable car will be less expensive to own.

For some reason the 2 big ones the minds, fuel cost and ATM charges. Not one concern about 1/2 of a pay check goes for a stupid cell phone.

Awe yes it is fun to watch, I can tell you that. Has anyone mentioned, not having read this thread. No need the title was enough to light my fire.

You crash the electric, one is in serious trouble. The rescue response and the time is will take to extract the occupants becomes a real dance extending removal time .


Imagine how fast Mr Electric car owner. Will regret having to plug and unplug a car. There is a serious level of inconvenience at hand here.

Hello boss forgot to plug my car in last night >

rant over

It is a rant indeed. But those that currently use the technology see few of those 'problems' and also see some benefits. It is never black and white. I have and use both forms of propulsion. Both have their pro's and con's. Sadly some only want to see one side and completely refuse to even acknowledge the other.

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