The Fate on the ICE

[K4fxd]

With today's Fuel injection and cats most of what comes out the tail pipe is H2O and Co2.

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[Rapid Red]

It is a rant indeed. But those that currently use the technology see few of those 'problems' and also see some benefits. It is never black and white. I have and use both forms of propulsion. Both have their pro's and con's. Sadly some only want to see one side and completely refuse to even acknowledge the other.

People can buy own what they want the problem comes the from the one size fits all .

 

[K4fxd]

The Co2 that gets released when we burn something.... we are just putting it back where it came from. The atmosphere.

 

[sk47]

You need to come up with some evidence for those statements.

Absolutely no evidence that EV's 'don't last'. Plenty of 10 year old EV's over here working fine and considering 90% of the EV is the same as an ICE car why would it be a problem ? The different bit is simpler on an EV with only one moving part.

What comes out of the tailpipe is well documented, in terms of what it contains and what it does. Why do you not agree and what evidence can you provide to confirm this ?

The last one is just rubbish. Poor people can't afford new cars no matter what they use to propel them. Old EV's depreciate like old ICE cars so they become more affordable with age. New EV's are very similar prices to ICE cars. There is now a £3000 EV being made in India which compares directly with an ICE equivalent.

I'm not having a go per se, but you can't just make statements like that without providing evidence, otherwise I could just say the sky is green and expect everyone to agree with me which is clearly ludicrous.

Hello; Here is some evidence.
Volvo says manufacturing an EV generates 70% more emissions than its ICE counterpart - AutoBuzz.my

Volvo_carbonfootprintreport.pdf (volvocars.com)

The interesting thing is you already have been shown these links in the "Science is canceled" thread a while back. That you knew of this study by Volvo and keep on the way you do is very telling.

 

[llinthicum1]

BEVs have some major hurdles to overcome before they are ready for the mass consumer. Currently BEV buyers are ones who like new technology and like being the "first" to own. Short range, long charging times, lack of infrastructure, relatively short battery pack life, reduced range during winter driving, and cost need to be resolved. And no doubt, these hurdles will be resolved with time. Battery technology is changing rapidly (e.g., solid state batteries) which will narrow the disadvantages BEVs have compared with ICE vehicles. Battery manufacturing cost will also come down. But it will take time and it probably won't be in the time frame that BEV proponents want. Actually, consumers will decide how fast or slow BEVs become mainstream. So, for the next several decades, at least in the U.S., we'll see ICE, BEV, and Hybrids.

One final point while consumers will have final say, the Government can speed up or slow down BEV adoption. Depending on who is in power in Washington, people could be encouraged to either buy BEVs or keep their ICE vehicles. For example, ICE vehicles won't be banned, but the Government could say, that ICE vehicles could not be reregistered. Or, raise the gas tax. Again, if the other political party is in charge, they could encourage ICE vehicles by making them cheaper to buy, i.e., stop tax credits for BEVs. Or, stop using tax dollars to build charging stations.

 

[sk47]

BEVs have some major hurdles to overcome before they are ready for the mass consumer. Currently BEV buyers are ones who like new technology and like being the "first" to own. Short range, long charging times, lack of infrastructure, relatively short battery pack life, reduced range during winter driving, and cost need to be resolved. And no doubt, these hurdles will be resolved with time. Battery technology is changing rapidly (e.g., solid state batteries) which will narrow the disadvantages BEVs have compared with ICE vehicles. Battery manufacturing cost will also come down. But it will take time and it probably won't be in the time frame that BEV proponents want. Actually, consumers will decide how fast or slow BEVs become mainstream. So, for the next several decades, at least in the U.S., we'll see ICE, BEV, and Hybrids.

One final point while consumers will have final say, the Government can speed up or slow down BEV adoption. Depending on who is in power in Washington, people could be encouraged to either buy BEVs or keep their ICE vehicles. For example, ICE vehicles won't be banned, but the Government could say, that ICE vehicles could not be reregistered. Or, raise the gas tax. Again, if the other political party is in charge, they could encourage ICE vehicles by making them cheaper to buy, i.e., stop tax credits for BEVs. Or, stop using tax dollars to build charging stations.

Hello; Thing is governments are already putting a lot of weight on the scales in various ways. You mentioned a couple.
Some states have already stated new ICE sales will be banned at around 2030 or 2035. That alone means car makers have to do something years before the deadline.
Volvo, for example, has gotten on board big time. Last I heard they plan to not have any ICE vehicles in the near future.
Volvo has already spun off it's ICE manufacturing to a subsidiary. They will be buying what ICE they will be using before they go all EV from that company. Likely the same building and people who were making the ICE before, but will not be a true part of Volvo. That also likely means there will not be any new Volvo models with an ICE. That they will use up the existing chassis and components in the meantime.
My guess is other makers will be stopping new ICE models. There may be a few to come out that were already in the process of being made since it can take many years to complete the process. Another guess is when the tooling for existing ICE models reaches the end of it's life, those models will be dropped. Dropped even if they are selling well.

 

[Gregs24]

BEVs have some major hurdles to overcome before they are ready for the mass consumer. Currently BEV buyers are ones who like new technology and like being the "first" to own. Short range, long charging times, lack of infrastructure, relatively short battery pack life, reduced range during winter driving, and cost need to be resolved. And no doubt, these hurdles will be resolved with time. Battery technology is changing rapidly (e.g., solid state batteries) which will narrow the disadvantages BEVs have compared with ICE vehicles. Battery manufacturing cost will also come down. But it will take time and it probably won't be in the time frame that BEV proponents want. Actually, consumers will decide how fast or slow BEVs become mainstream. So, for the next several decades, at least in the U.S., we'll see ICE, BEV, and Hybrids.

One final point while consumers will have final say, the Government can speed up or slow down BEV adoption. Depending on who is in power in Washington, people could be encouraged to either buy BEVs or keep their ICE vehicles. For example, ICE vehicles won't be banned, but the Government could say, that ICE vehicles could not be reregistered. Or, raise the gas tax. Again, if the other political party is in charge, they could encourage ICE vehicles by making them cheaper to buy, i.e., stop tax credits for BEVs. Or, stop using tax dollars to build charging stations.

BEV's are now mainstream in some countries. Maybe not in the US, but it is a global market with global car makers and even the US production is not that big on a global scale (Just 12%)

Most of the world is not caught up in US politics. In the UK all political parties are of a similar view on stopping the sale of ICE cars, and some countries are only 2 or 3 years away from that ban, but then those countries already have 75% plus of new cars as plug in cars anyway.

 

[gone_n_60]

Would farmers not be able to create their own (free) bio diesel ?

Here in the Midwest a lot of farmers have already formed Co-ops that make bio-diesel and have been using it for years and years now.

 

[gone_n_60]

btw great thread here and lots of good discussion on the subject. Just thinking, if gas consumption drops off why would it get more expensive (excepting gov't artificially taxes it into oblivion)? I've worked in Oil'n'Gas and there is plenty to still go around, really. So if consumption falls off and I'm stilling on about 2 or 5 million gallons of gas I'm going to drop the price so you'll buy more. true? What I'm seeing is the Gov't CAFE standards are getting tighter and manufacturer's have to plan decades ahead so they start moving more to the EV standard even without a gun to their heads. if the actual infrastructure problems of massive EV numbers is real we'll hit an impasse point where manufacturer's will ask for CAFE exceptions to make cars that Jim and Suzy $70K income can buy. Me Ima gonna drive this GT for all it's worth, keep it maintained and clean til they take my license away! Then my sons can have it.

 

[K4fxd]

I've worked in Oil'n'Gas and there is plenty to still go around, really.

That is the real crime here. We have plenty.

Don't worry though the same people killing off the ICE will start going after the EV's when they figure out how bad the batteries pollute.

 

[Gregs24]

btw great thread here and lots of good discussion on the subject. Just thinking, if gas consumption drops off why would it get more expensive (excepting gov't artificially taxes it into oblivion)? I've worked in Oil'n'Gas and there is plenty to still go around, really. So if consumption falls off and I'm stilling on about 2 or 5 million gallons of gas I'm going to drop the price so you'll buy more. true? What I'm seeing is the Gov't CAFE standards are getting tighter and manufacturer's have to plan decades ahead so they start moving more to the EV standard even without a gun to their heads. if the actual infrastructure problems of massive EV numbers is real we'll hit an impasse point where manufacturer's will ask for CAFE exceptions to make cars that Jim and Suzy $70K income can buy. Me Ima gonna drive this GT for all it's worth, keep it maintained and clean til they take my license away! Then my sons can have it.

Oil price is controlled largely by OPEC. I realise the US is not part of it, but so much of the global market (and resource) is, that they really do control the price. Supply and demand then follows that, partly because if OPEC restrict production price goes up, but also if price falls too low production slows as less economic forms of production don't make sense. It is however a very complex market and certainly not something a paragraph or two can do justice too.

 

[K4fxd]

Oil price is controlled largely by OPEC.

It wasn't a year or so ago

 

[gone_n_60]

Oil price is controlled largely by OPEC. I realise the US is not part of it, but so much of the global market (and resource) is, that they really do control the price. Supply and demand then follows that, partly because if OPEC restrict production price goes up, but also if price falls too low production slows as less economic forms of production don't make sense. It is however a very complex market and certainly not something a paragraph or two can do justice too.

True in some part (and yes very complex) but the US has become an exporter for the first time in decades and we now hold more influence over OPEC than before. Case in point of the article link here...
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/16/occidental-to-biden-ask-us-to-increase-oil-production-not-opec.html

 

[1958cyclist]

I will drive my "fun" cars as long as either I'm alive, or it just becomes untenable due to gas pricing or availability. I guessing that the transition to EV's is going to be a slow one. There are too many ICE vehicles currently in use, and there are too many unresolved issues on the EV side to make them a replacement for other than for short commutes or very well planned one.

 

[sk47]

True in some part (and yes very complex) but the US has become an exporter for the first time in decades and we now hold more influence over OPEC than before. Case in point of the article link here...
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/16/occidental-to-biden-ask-us-to-increase-oil-production-not-opec.html

Hello; I think in the last year the USA has become less than self-sustaining in terms of oil production. Measures are in the works to further reduce USA oil production. It was nice while it lasted.

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