TDStuart Tuning Adventure

[tdstuart]

I’m confused. I laid out fully explained suggestions in post 852 and several times since then. Markmurfie offered up a good plan in post 855. But now you’re posting something that doesn’t match any of the above, and asking for input. What’s wrong with all the layouts that were suggested?

What mark suggested was 9 mapped points. You said 9 is to many so I changed my original plan to 6.

The mapped points I chose are based off of info from you, mark, and what I felt while driving. I know you said earlier that choosing mapped points based off how the car drives when said mapped points are unturned is a bad idea but when I tuned MP 19 it drove the same.

I think my layout of the mapped points makes the most sense to me and will provide good drivability and ease of tuning. Maybe Im just not seeing how you are approaching it.

MP0 - 0,0 - Used for idle and OS (IMRC closed)
MP1 - 20,40 - Used for cruise (IMRC closed)
MP2 - 0,0 - IMRC open of MP0, used during cruise and OS
MP3 - 20,40 - IMRC open of MP1, used during cruise
MP4 - -20,35 - Used for OP mode (low rpm) (IMRC open)
MP5 - 0,35 - Used for OP mode (high rpm) (IMRC open)

For the blending the car will blend between MP0 and MP1 for OS (heavy weight on MP0), FE mode will blend between MP0 -> MP1 -> MP0 (replicating how stock blends and what I have found drives well). Optimum power will start at -20,35 and move towards 0,35 at high rpm, so it will blend between MP4 and MP5.

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[tdstuart]

Did a little test and the blending for MP0->MP1 needs some work. I might try copying how the stock one has it (Use the stock mp and mp blending but the car will only blend between new mp0 and mp1).

Either way I think it will work good. I need to test with the imrc enabled though.

 

[K4fxd]

The tune I posted is a tried and true working tune. Look at it for how to tune the distance tables and mapped points. Why make it harder than it needs to be?

 

[tdstuart]

The tune I posted is a tried and true working tune. Look at it for how to tune the distance tables and mapped points. Why make it harder than it needs to be?

The tune actually has multiple mapped points enabled even if it tries not to use them. And its also for imrc locked out which I am not doing. It has 14-15 enabled.

I don't believe I am making it harder than it needs to be? I am just trying to figure out how to set it up and I think my approach is pretty straight forward.

 

[K4fxd]

There is no reason to disable mapped points. That tune will only use MP 23 and 24 while driving, WOT is controlled by the OP table.

EDIT

The reason the 0 -13 are disabled is to prevent it from using any IMRC closed MP's. There is no reason to disable any of the IMRC open MP's

 

[markmurfie]

Can you explain this a little more, I am a bit confused!

-Theres 28 tables and 28 inverse tables for torque to load translation/vise versa, one for each mapped point. These are based on indicated TQ at stoich AFR, MBT Spark, and STD conditions. So not something you can measure and just enter into the table. Certainly this model has changed with your modifications and the difference in engine VE you are seeing. (Indicated /Scheduled torque.)
-Theres only one driver demand table for crankshaft torque output based on accelerator pedal position. If you do not make that one table accurate for each MP, while you tune that MP, you could just be introducing error of that into the torque inverse tables. Most people don't care as long as the MAF/des. MAF or load/Des. load agree they say its all good. To expand upon this, theres desired torque and electronic throttle control torque, both come from the values in the driver demand table. The difference is one translates MAF sensor airflow to a TQ value and the other is calculated airflow through the throttle body to a TQ value. Again the TQ value is from the driver demand table, the airflows may not agree as you have already seen.(driver demand / ETC torque)
-Theres a third engine brake torque that is calculated by the ECU from the torque to load tables and a host of other torque ratios based on actual engine parameters, not stoich AFR, MBT Spark, and STD conditions. This torque should match the driver demand/ETC torque, and theres a PID error correction loop that does just that, keeping them the same so that pedal movement always feels like it is doing something the driver wants to have happen. There are parameters that disables that error correction and allow these two to diverge in certain situations. (engine brake torque)

Demand torque + idle torque = scheduled torque this is done so idle torque is the minimum scheduled torque to control air, fuel, spark with 0 demand torque.
indicated torque - Fuel TR - Spark TR - losses = engine brake torque.

Its a coincidence idle torque and the torque ratios/ losses equal each other. They are not even though scheduled and indicated torques are always equal.

Its very possible I have missed something in the details of all these moving parts.
All I have to add is what I tell everyone, watch out for the axis values in the torque and torque inverse tables. They are not alligned and it throws people off. HPT shows it visually a bit better.
PCMtech does not have tools to help you tune this.

This is already a complicated thing to explain, complicated thing to tune because torque error is not directly proportional to MAF or load error, and having multiple softwares call the same thing by different names isn't going to make it any less confusing for me figuring out what terms I should use or for others figuring out what I am reffering to exactly.

What mark suggested was 9 mapped points. You said 9 is to many so I changed my original plan to 6.

The mapped points I chose are based off of info from you, mark, and what I felt while driving. I know you said earlier that choosing mapped points based off how the car drives when said mapped points are unturned is a bad idea but when I tuned MP 19 it drove the same.

You didn't really finish tuning MP 19, just the SD for it. TQ and spark would also need to be optimized.

 

[engineermike]

What mark suggested was 9 mapped points. You said 9 is to many so I changed my original plan to 6.

You can use as many or few as you want, as long as the locations work together and can flow properly. Only you can decide how much time you want to spend calibrating mapped points, but once you decide that and if you want IMRC functional, then I can help you with the best locations and rationale. My opinion is that 9 is too many for you to manage. It took me weeks to calibrate just 2 mapped points speed density in my own vehicle, so calibrating SD/torque/blk/mbt for 9 mapped points is daunting. Furthermore, what you came up with doesn't match what markmurfie or I recommended.

The mapped points I chose are based off of info from you, mark, and what I felt while driving. I know you said earlier that choosing mapped points based off how the car drives when said mapped points are unturned is a bad idea but when I tuned MP 19 it drove the same.

As mark said, you have barely begun to tune MP19. Not to mention, going by "feel" is still NOT the right way to determine what cam timing to use. I'm assuming by "feel", what you are getting at is that the torque response "feels" a certain way? That doesn't matter for MP19 because MP19 is/was never intended to make more torque than what it takes to maintain highway speeds at steady state. If it does that efficiently, then its mission is accomplished. At steady state cruise, the manifold pressure should be high to reduce pumping losses, meaning the throttle is far open already just to cruise. By definition, it's going to feel weak. The idea is that somewhere around .4 load, you start transitioning it towards 5/35 and around .8 you move to OP (-20/35). Once this is active in the distance table, the torque response is good because the cams have moved to a [less efficient] mapped point that is capable of making the torque the driver demands.

Maybe Im just not seeing how you are approaching it.

I tried to explain it in post 852. Did some part of it need more explanation?

MP0 - 0,0 - Used for idle and OS (IMRC closed)
MP1 - 20,40 - Used for cruise (IMRC closed)
MP2 - 0,0 - IMRC open of MP0, used during cruise and OS
MP3 - 20,40 - IMRC open of MP1, used during cruise
MP4 - -20,35 - Used for OP mode (low rpm) (IMRC open)
MP5 - 0,35 - Used for OP mode (high rpm) (IMRC open)

Couple comments:

- I don't see much reason for your MP2 and 3 because IMRC should be closed at idle and cruise. In fact, the only mapped points that need IMRC open are the two used for OP.
- Instead of 20/40 for cruise, use 15/50. I've already detailed the reasons, but here it is again. Comp delayed IVC 25 deg vs stock. Moving IVO from 40 ("very late" stock cruise) to 15 will retain the same IVC as stock, which is where Ford put it to maximize efficiency. 40-25=15. For the exhaust, Comp pushed EVO VERY far advanced, which shortens the power stroke and loses efficiency. Full retarding the exhaust cam to 50 will reduce the efficiency loss this causes.
- Using 6 mapped points tells me this is your final solution, not your start-simple-and-go-from-there solution. If it's your final solution, then you might as well add one at 20/0 for idle.
- MP5 I would move over to 5/35 because it needs to cover the entire OP intake cam sweep. I don't think you're going to need to retard all the way to +5 in OP, but you might and there's no advantage to limiting it at 0.
- The order of them is going to unnecessarily complicate the index arrays and confuse things, if you think about the flow. In the distance table you're going to be flowing from 0 -> 1 -> 5 -> 4 as load and speed increase. Think about how you will command cam timing that falls between 1 and 5. This means the distance table will be populated from 0-3 but the index array will need to have 2 pointing to 5 and 3 pointing to 4, while 0 and 1 will just point to themselves. Otherwise, you won't be able to command any cam timings that fall between your MP1 20/40 (or 15/50) and your MP5 0/35 (or 5/35) as you transition from cruise to heavier loads.

 

[Pistol_91]

0,0 for idle doesn't make sense to me.

 

[engineermike]

0,0 for idle doesn't make sense to me.

It's not ideal, but it will work. Our cars all start up at 0/0 anyway, and it has less overlap than the ghost cams. If you're trying to minimize mapped points, you could idle there.

 

[Pistol_91]

It's not ideal, but it will work. Our cars all start up at 0/0 anyway, and it has less overlap than the ghost cams. If you're trying to minimize mapped points, you could idle there.

I just dont know why he doesnt just choose his MP one time and be done with it... lol. 20,0 for idle and be done. Never have to touch it again.

 

[markmurfie]

I just dont know why he doesnt just choose his MP one time and be done with it... lol. 20,0 for idle and be done. Never have to touch it again.

IDK why choosing it now matters. They all will have to be tuned. Still has to figure out how to do that. Once they are all tuned figure out how you want the cams to phase.

 

[Pistol_91]

IDK why choosing it now matters. They all will have to be tuned. Still has to figure out how to do that. Once they are all tuned figure out how you want the cams to phase.

And thats the bottom line. Now get to tuning TD, lets go. were 9000 pages deep on here and so far youve done SD for 1 mapped point. LOL

 

[tdstuart]

There is no reason to disable mapped points. That tune will only use MP 23 and 24 while driving, WOT is controlled by the OP table.

EDIT

The reason the 0 -13 are disabled is to prevent it from using any IMRC closed MP's. There is no reason to disable any of the IMRC open MP's

And thats the bottom line. Now get to tuning TD, lets go. were 9000 pages deep on here and so far youve done SD for 1 mapped point. LOL

I just want to figure out what mapped points I want to use so I can tune those specific ones lmao. For some reason I thought 0,0 was standard for idle

 

[K4fxd]

Mike gave you exact directions for setting up points and he also gave reasons why.

 

[K4fxd]

Any progress?

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