Soler Engineering Throttle body

[guzie]

I’m running the TB by itself, no throttle controller installed at this time. Had given a controller consideration but not thinking it’s necessary for my own use, though could still be interesting. The TB has addressed all driveability issues I previously had. So far every aspect of function of the Tab is a marked improvement over the stock TB. I am actively looking for any negatives but so far this thing is just pleasantly surprising.

I’m still trying to fathom the drive ability issues you saw without it. Ive owned two GT350, a 2017 and now a 2018. Stock from the showroom they were great and only got better with more power when I had Lund tune both. Now running E85 with a JLT and soon to have LT headers installed. Still as easy to drive as ever without any throttle issues.

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[GTthree50]

I’m still trying to fathom the drive ability issues you saw without it. Ive owned two GT350, a 2017 and now a 2018. Stock from the showroom they were great and only got better with more power when I had Lund tune both. Now running E85 with a JLT and soon to have LT headers installed. Still as easy to drive as ever without any throttle issues.

The things I experienced were when very cold after parking outside all day but only briefly. I never played with it to determine how much throttle opening was leading to this. Usually I'd just push in the clutch, it would go back to idle and redo. It manifested as a severe bucking and surging. The only other thing besides that was a little lack of smoothness between gears, especially 2-3 upshifts. I am not experiencing either situation now. The car is noticed Bly smoother between shifts as well, especially in Sport mode and Track mode is perfect. Even if those issues are isolated to my car it's the overall increase in smoothness with power delivery as well as the nice feeling of added power.

 

[honeybadger]

Alright, so I have the version I am testing back from my buddy. He loved it. He did have some slight surging at idle in sub 40 degree temps, but otherwise it was flawless. When I spoke to Mike, he mentioned they sent me the most aggressive version, so it's possible it's a bit too much for every day driving.

I am on track this weekend instructing with Chin, so will have an opportunity to test this out. Very interested to see how this feels. I plan to document and will share my unfiltered results with ya'll.

 

[NGOT8R]

I’m anxiously waiting for my Soler Performance enhanced factory Bullitt tb to arrive. There shouldn’t be any issues with it talking to the ECM this time around. Looking forward to evaluating it for the “greater good“ of the Mustang community.

 

[Duece McCracken]

I’m anxiously waiting for my Soler Performance enhanced factory Bullitt tb to arrive. There shouldn’t be any issues with it talking to the ECM this time around. Looking forward to evaluating it for the “greater good“ of the Mustang community.

You and I both!!! Lol

 

[Mrhavasu]

Alright, so I have the version I am testing back from my buddy. He loved it. He did have some slight surging at idle in sub 40 degree temps, but otherwise it was flawless. When I spoke to Mike, he mentioned they sent me the most aggressive version, so it's possible it's a bit too much for every day driving.

I am on track this weekend instructing with Chin, so will have an opportunity to test this out. Very interested to see how this feels. I plan to document and will share my unfiltered results with ya'll.

Thanks for the update, keep it coming. Excitedly waiting.

 

[GTthree50]

Alright, so I have the version I am testing back from my buddy. He loved it. He did have some slight surging at idle in sub 40 degree temps, but otherwise it was flawless. When I spoke to Mike, he mentioned they sent me the most aggressive version, so it's possible it's a bit too much for every day driving.

I am on track this weekend instructing with Chin, so will have an opportunity to test this out. Very interested to see how this feels. I plan to document and will share my unfiltered results with ya'll.

I’m definitely curious how the more aggressively ported model is in everyday driving. Mike told me that it will be stronger at lower revs but from 50% to WOT is the same. One of the aspects I like so much with the version sent me is the great driveability.

 

[Rusherific]

This is going to be interesting. The value they offer is smoother air flow through the throttle at various angles including wide open. That in itself won't change the power production of the engine. If the smoothed and polished TB allows more air at full throttle, then that will, in the same way that a larger TB would.

The question is, how will the ECU respond to the buffed TB? Their webpage shows a lot of GM products they build TB's for, and as far as I know, the GM ECU's work slightly differently than the Ford 2011 and later ECU's. Earlier GM ECU's used a "manifold absolute pressure" ("MAP") sensor to monitor the air pressure inside the intake manifold behind the throttle. If intake airflow increases, then MAP increases, and the ECU pushes more fuel to keep up with the increased airflow. I don't know if GM has abandoned this approach or not. Ford ECU's don't do it this way, though.

In the Ford Coyote (and later) ECU's, the intake manifold pressure is estimated by a handful of tables that translate the physical characteristics of the throttle body into an estimate of MAP at various airflows measured by the MAF. There's no MAP sensor. Changing the physical TB will invalidate the values in the tables - they were determined in the original calibration of the factory engine and TB. These tables are used by the ECU to get the fueling right and to guess how far to open the throttle when the driver changes the pedal position.

Now, I'm certainly not saying it won't work. If the changes are within the "error band" built into the ECU calibration, then the ECU will compensate and nothing unusual will happen. Changes in the airflow at various throttle angles can't produce more power - the ECU matches power production (by controlling total airflow at all times) with the gas pedal position. That's its mission in life. So, if you alter the TB to produce more airflow at a particular throttle opening, the ECU just closes it a bit to get the airflow back where it belongs. And all these adjustments are computed in the ECU up to two full revolutions of the engine ahead of the current moment. The ECU has a graduate degree in prediction, and it's pretty darn good at it.

Where there might be a benefit is at WOT. If there's more airflow at WOT, there's more power and the ECU is just as happy with that situation as the driver is. As I said at the start, this is going to be interesting.

I'm kinda confused by all this. You start by saying the ECU doesn't make any adjustments because its TB positioning is pre-computed, but the second half you're saying it does make adjustments in order to maintain its desired power level, but then also at WOT you *do* get more power somehow? Why wouldn't the ECU also be closing the TB a bit at WOT like you're saying it would throughout the rest of the powerband? I'm not even trying to say you're wrong but am not at all understanding what it is you're saying happens.

 

[Rusherific]

Alright, so I have the version I am testing back from my buddy. He loved it. He did have some slight surging at idle in sub 40 degree temps, but otherwise it was flawless. When I spoke to Mike, he mentioned they sent me the most aggressive version, so it's possible it's a bit too much for every day driving.

I am on track this weekend instructing with Chin, so will have an opportunity to test this out. Very interested to see how this feels. I plan to document and will share my unfiltered results with ya'll.

I'm curious Honeybadger what gas you guys run on the track?

 

[honeybadger]

I'm curious Honeybadger what gas you guys run on the track?

E85 from a local Sunocco that always tests at 85-90% ethanol. I also have a tune for 100 octane, but I almost never run it due to cost and less performance

 

[ShatterPoints]

I'm kinda confused by all this. You start by saying the ECU doesn't make any adjustments because its TB positioning is pre-computed, but the second half you're saying it does make adjustments in order to maintain its desired power level, but then also at WOT you *do* get more power somehow? Why wouldn't the ECU also be closing the TB a bit at WOT like you're saying it would throughout the rest of the powerband? I'm not even trying to say you're wrong but am not at all understanding what it is you're saying happens.

The ecu has the physical measurements of the TB. It calculates air flow based on sensor data, physical measurements of TB, and correction tables. Then it attempts to deliver the requested torque (it is a torque demand system). When you depress the throttle to the % threshold that is "WOT" in the active drive mode, the correction the ECU has to deliver is less variable. There is no more torque to request once you reach WOT and thats that you're at a static request / delivery. Compared to partial throttle, or city street driving, while not using cruise control, your throttle position is widely variable. The correction tables for throttle smoothing depends heavily on the TB measurements. If you change that enough, you get quirky / odd driveability behavior.

 

[NGOT8R]

She’s here and she talks to me with her body (throttle body that is)! Plugged her up for a quick test and her tongue immediately started wagging’. Hopefully I’ll be able to do the install tomorrow. Stay tuned!

 

[Duece McCracken]

She’s here and she talks to me with her body (throttle body that is)! Plugged her up for a quick test and her tongue immediately started wagging’. Hopefully I’ll be able to do the install tomorrow. Stay tuned!

Ok, so is this the Soler job on your TB? I sent the prototype back in. Waiting to get it back, lol

 

[NGOT8R]

Ok, so is this the Soler job on your TB? I sent the prototype back in. Waiting to get it back, lol

Yep, that’s my factory tb. The port job looks very close to the Soler prototypes that you and I tested, however, I did notice that throttle blade bar does not have the dimples in it. I am curious as to why that feature was omitted this time around? Overall, I’m very pleased with the way it looks. Can’t wait to install it and see how it works.

 

[JAJ]

I'm kinda confused by all this. You start by saying the ECU doesn't make any adjustments because its TB positioning is pre-computed, but the second half you're saying it does make adjustments in order to maintain its desired power level, but then also at WOT you *do* get more power somehow? Why wouldn't the ECU also be closing the TB a bit at WOT like you're saying it would throughout the rest of the powerband? I'm not even trying to say you're wrong but am not at all understanding what it is you're saying happens.

The ECU has a bunch of tables that define the way the engine works so it can predict what'll happen next. It has to decide in advance the cam angles, the spark timing and fuel volume and timing so that it produces the torque that the driver is asking for. It also predicts where the throttle plate should be as well. The table content is determined during the calibration phase for the engine family, so it's as accurate as possible for an engine where every measurement is perfect.

Because of real-world variations, there's a second monitor function running in parallel with the predictive function that looks at what's happening in the engine now - knock detection, actual cam angles, actual mass airflow and temperature, actual exhaust gas content, etc. That monitor function feeds back into the predictions and applies corrections so the predictions become increasingly precise and accurate, compensating for changes. It has a long-term component to deal with changes as the engine breaks in, as it ages and as things wear. It also has a short-term component that deals with airflow changes caused by altitude - driving up a mountain, for instance.

That's how the ECU manages throttle performance in "normal" driving when you're not commanding full power. When the accelerator pedal get to to the floor, the ECU changes modes. The "commanded torque" value (from the driver's foot) it's aiming for switches from "please give me exactly 125 newton-meters" (for instance) to "as much as you can make". It still uses the tables, but it stops worrying about how far to open the throttle. It'll take all the air the wide open throttle can give it and manage fueling, etc, around what the MAF sensor tells it. It's perfectly capable of compensating for a small change in wind resistance in the throttle body and delivering fuel to match.

Why I was a bit skeptical about the effect of the polished and ported throttle body is in the mid-range, where the ECU is doing it's absolute best to produce the "commanded torque" the driver is asking for. If the throttle body allows more airflow than the original factory calibration, it figures out what the difference is and adjusts accordingly. If that change from the factory calibration is inconsistent across the operating range of the throttle plate, it's likely that the short term monitor will be constantly hunting for a new adjustment to the throttle position. That can translate into changes in drivability - you'll feel the change before the ECU adjusts it away - and those changes could be "positive" or "negative" depending on how they affect the way the car feels.

Actually, when you think about it, polishing the throttle body will probably have a bigger effect on fuel economy than anything else. Less turbulence means less pumping losses means a more fuel efficient engine. BMW got a huge bump in fuel efficiency a decade or so ago when it eliminated the throttle plate entirely and controlled intake airflow by adjusting valve lift.

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