RLCA Help: Spherical Bearing vs. Poly Bushing

[fatbillybob]

I still believe that the forces will be negligible due to the small amount of rotation needed. Which I cant imagine would be much more than 10 degrees.

I was going to post up about this. At the shock we have what +/- 2" of travel? What is that at the pivot point? The amount of off angle movement might not be significant and perhaps incompressible delrin could be used since the arm is never going to be 90 degrees pointing straight down or hit the limits of upward movement hitting the inside of the fender well. 10 degrees is not outside the realm of possibility.

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[Norm Peterson]

The SCCA "T" racing classes

Can you describe that in a little more detail? T as in Touring (wheel to wheel), or T as in Time Trialing/Tuner?


Norm

 

[fatbillybob]

Can you describe that in a little more detail? T as in Touring (wheel to wheel), or T as in Time Trialing/Tuner?


Norm

SCCA "T" classes are Touring wheel to wheel race classes closest to stock cars with rollcage and limited suspension mods on Dot-R tires.

The S550 Ecoboost and GT can fit in T1 and (GT2 runs slicks with lots of mods) in this discussion sphericals OK

The S550 GT can fit in T2 with delrin, poly or rubber

The S550 Ecoboost can fit in T2 more mods and T3 more stock with delrin, poly, or rubber

SCCA is more racing and very little Time trial. SCCA is not setup like NASA that has a very competitive Time Trial ladder where many cross class say TT2 (time trial) and ST2 (wheel to wheel racing). To get more tracktime in SCCA you would use say a S550 GT in T1 no restrictor @ 3450lbs and T2 50mm restrictor and add ballast @ 3600lbs

 

[buttsy]

I was going to post up about this. At the shock we have what +/- 2" of travel? What is that at the pivot point? The amount of off angle movement might not be significant and perhaps incompressible delrin could be used since the arm is never going to be 90 degrees pointing straight down or hit the limits of upward movement hitting the inside of the fender well. 10 degrees is not outside the realm of possibility.

The down travel from ride height of my 2017 gt fitted with BMR SP083R springs and track pack shocks is approx 120mm. Using a 550mm suspension arm length it would equate to approx 10 to 12 degrees of rotation of the bush downwards from the neutral position. I would assume that the compression travel will not be as much.

 

[308 Cal. Bullitt]

OK, that at least tells me where you're coming from.



The rules in those activities may very well be that simple. It's not like that with other racing organizations.



I've never seen a poly bushing that did not use its own sleeve for the bolt to run through. It would be a hard pass on such a part or assembly if I ever saw it.



I've never seen an OEM design that did not use double shear for suspension attachments, unless you're thinking about front sta-bar endlinks. But at least those things do not provide any kind of wheel location.



All that is fine, but it's also well outside what OP needs to duplicate. As far as we know today, he's not building his car for any drag strip time at all.



That last bit is exactly the situation that many drag-racers and autocrossers/HPDE'ers find themselves in, where the same car has to be able to do both.



Of course. What I'll say here is that the more you push your car's build toward being a "real race car", the more it is on you to build it like it was going to be a real race car. But there's quite a lot of room between what a newbie to whatever activity actually needs and what an advanced amateur or higher who actually is racing can't afford not to do. And there's still the matter of what any class rules allow.

I would not separate the idea of corrosion resistance from a build aimed at a car for road course duty even if it's not going to see much (or any) street driving. HPDE events (and autocross, for that matter) run rain or shine, unlike drag racing or Bonneville.


Norm

NOTHING WE SAID WAS STRICTDRAG RACING.
I DOUBT YOU KNOW WHERE WE ARE COMING FROM.
If you think we have no experience building anything but drag cars thats your mis-understanding. Not ours.

we only mentioned Booneville because Salt is very corrosive. As is any road conditions of a daily driver.
Cars driven on street even actually see salt..believe it or not?? Lol


Salt is in many places beyond a drag strip. very little salt on 1 in fact. Does that mean no drag cars suffer corrosion??
If you believe that you must not know the definition of corrisive.

Rain has chemicals in it that is beyond purified water. Hence, even rain water is corrosive.

If you guys wanna pick apart single phrases to make yourselves feel smart.
Please. By all means. Run with it.

I like that everyone's job is to try to pick out 1 thing in our post, and attempt to shred or twist some fact. NEVER SEEN DOUBLE SHEAR BUT FROM A WHAT?

"""""I've never seen an OEM design that did not use double shear for suspension attachments, unless you're thinking about front sta-bar endlinks. But at least those things do not provide any kind of wheel location."""""
See pic below.
Tons of single shear thru out automotive history. When you have worked on thousands of cars that span more decades than anyone whos alive on this forum you see more than an S550 mustang Chassis.

Well. Your criticism's .. & pulling short phrases does tell us all you critics actually read the post.....
No.. wait..
you chose to hear ..not read..
what you wanted..lol

Then hoped to prove somehow you feel you have more relevant experience. ??
Ok. You hav more experience than we do.
You win.. its not a contest. But U all win anyway. Your all way smarter than we are on this topic.
Clearly you all have done more ground up hand fabricated builds on both drivers and racecars than us. You All win. !!@@!!

Everyone hav more experience & feel better now that we said you do?
Or can we shred that fact too somehow?? Lol

Cuz that still doesn't change facts.
Like that picture at the bottom...is fact. & NOT DOUBLE SHEAR.

Im glad you all do.
KNOW MORE THAN WE DO.
THK THE GOOD LORD..
CUZ THAT AINT MUCH..LOL

The post wasnt written for everyone who responded.
FOR THE OP
But at least your trying to think of ways to null or void what 35 yrs & over 60,000 hrs of experience from Riddler quality cars to world record holding cars all have in common.

If its a street car and your concerned about noise. Use poly.

If its a race car you use Teflon Lined, stainless Spherical rod ends.

As for single vs double shear & parts YOU FAILED TO SEE ON YOUR OWN CAR??

PROLLY 1st After Market PART we saw built for S550s were these links..
Guess you call this double shear?

As for people trying to build a race car out of a street car.?
Futile and wasted effort. Its a strret car or a race car. That Balance in between has been tried for decades and everyone with any stamina or financial strength.
Still ends up with a race car in the end.

When in doubt. Use components that are designed for a race car. If your expertise will not get you where you need to be. Use teflon lined Spherical's. In Stainless if you hav the means.

Corrosive situation are abundant in every vehicle. Even Professional Drag Race cars use Stainless Teflon lined rod ends.
& see very little mousture. No salt ir rain water to speak of.

So Booneville or the Baja is irrelevant.
Its just 2 words that Segway into the point that if you hav experience in virtually all fields of vehicle operations including street cars that cost several hundred thousand dollars to build. Then you hav managed to cover in tens of thousands of hours all types of vehicles that COULD POSSIBLY USE EITHER POLY OR TEFLON LINED SPHERICAL'S.

THAT SAID. IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT BECAUSE YOU CAN USE EITHER TYPE.."OP"...
THAT YOU SHOULD USE EITHER.

It simply this. Race car.. use as we explained.
Street car. Use as we explained.

If you dont know what single shear is. Look at the pick we posted.

Btw. If you truely do not now the difference between a RACE CAR AND A STREET CAR.
That rule is even SIMPLER.

IF YOU buy a car new and it comes with any type of warranty from the manufacturer..
Like a 3 yr 36k mike warranty. Thats a street car.

If you buy a car that is intended for racing and DOES NOT COME WITH A MANUFACTURER'S WARRANTY.
THATS MORE THAN LIKELY A RACE CAR.
YET ANOTHER SIMPLE RULE.

Just cuz you all are trying to make the OP drink from a firehose doesnt make you qualified by experience to question those who likely are qualified to give him the answers in a very simple statement.

The rules of poly/Spherical's still stands after all the bashing.

And this last rule of what is a street car and what is a Racecar will also likely with stand the bashing.

If you < OP > think we wrote to much.??
You may not have an idea of what it takes to be thorough enuff to build from scratch... either vehicle....
Street car Daily or racecar.
( Race car doesn't mean Booneville or Drag strip. It means nearly any race vehicles)

Our previous post didnt really even scratch the surface of anything other than explaining THE OBVIOUS for those who already know.
. Those who do not are just
'Doubting Thomas's'.

Those who do not know.
Grab at & pull out of context 1 line phrases.. .. and try to discredit 1 smal phrase.
It makes them feel important. Even thou they could not really contribute to your actual question upfront.

Now many.. after reading outlr post. A few weeks from now will be experts in this area.

OP. If you want legitimate answers.
. You go to Professional Builders for answers.

like..
People who have done this type work for more hrs... than # of hrs S550S have been available to purchase.

If tje haters cannot follow that..
& it would seem that they cant follow that.

Take 24hr X 365 days....
Then take the
8760 hrs ...
(thats hrs in a year)
and multiple that times the # of yrs they have built S550s.

Find yourself someone who has as much or more hrs of experience that that "resultant".

& you will likely hav someone who can answer any suspension questions a S550 can throw at you. Thats not a rule. Thats an opinion.
Or look up what People like Einstein said about EXPERIENCE VS INTELLIGENCE.

Cuz I see a lot of intelligent people here who think math can solve all problems.
Once saw someone try to take the energy of the ring gear and convert it into wattage to develop a heat soak translation for why rear ends on these cars go into limp mode. While the guys with experience just shielded the exhaust from the rear differential and lowered the gear lube temps considerably.

again. As Einstein said many times. Regarding Experience.

Quote by Albert Einstein: “The only source of knowledge is experience.”

And clearly by all the responses of folks who know more than we do. Its clear we are not that 50k/60k+ hr Professional you might seek for the answers you might feel you need.

Let the math & physics experts tell you the radial and axial loads of both. & some bullchit on how that applies to your situation.
We use math all the time. Not to prove we are right. But to prove we are likely wrong.
Experience will prove you right more times than math.
Because the math is flawed by lack of experience and being able to
apply ( aka - plug in)
the *correct*.... "unknown quantities"

U can say u want a street car snd a racecar.

But saying it doesn't make it so.
If you live in that world of EXPECTATIONS VS POSSIBILITIES.

You likely watch to much Fantasy TV like
STAR - Trek- Wars-Gate-....
In other words..
.. too much fantasy crap.
Like you would get bleached into your brain from hrs of things like video games.

You gotta live in reality.
Reality of what a racecar is. & a daily driver is.
And what else is apart of those 2 very diff vehicles.
More than Enuff Said.
But you guys who are so laden w/experience vs expectations...
will still read it...lmao

If you want your answer 'OP'. Its in these 2 posts. Its up to u to decide what your after.
Nobody can really make that decision for you. Only provide you with the information to decide not only today w/say an N/A mill.
But 2 yrs from now w/Whipple.

Funny how everyone is so goo goo gaa gaa over Whipple's. When # 1 they never even designed there own blowers. Went to Sweden to hav it done. # 2.. didn't start building street blowers till they couldnt beat Nor Drazys several hundred cubic inch smalker screw blower in all types of racing from boats to drag cars and beyond.

If Norm Drazy was still alive today...

Ohh..heck..
never mind.
This is just wasted typing. Nobody wants to hear the real truth. SIMPS Just wanna hear what they reinforces their own subconsciously trained believe systemsfrom what they read by marketing people...lol

Just use Stainless Teflon lined Spherical's and you will be fine for many yrs of driving.
ANYTHING !@!

 

[Brian@BMVK]

My goodness what a bunch of nonsense.

 

[Brian@BMVK]

Let the math & physics experts tell you the radial and axial loads of both. & some bullchit on how that applies to your situation

 

[Norm Peterson]

NOTHING WE SAID WAS STRICTDRAG RACING.
I DOUBT YOU KNOW WHERE WE ARE COMING FROM.
If you think we have no experience building anything but drag cars thats your mis-understanding. Not ours.

Hey, it was you who said

W/heavy emphasis on Several decades of
NHRA/& IHRA World Championship Car Builds, under our belt. & prof. Drag race car construction being the bulk of our 60k plus hours of experience.

Not me. And I didn't even try to suggest that you only did drag and land speed record stuff.

Cars driven on street even actually see salt..believe it or not??

As an ex-New-Englander still living where there is snow, I know about road salt and other corrosive chemicals. Trust me.

"""""I've never seen an OEM design that did not use double shear for suspension attachments, unless you're thinking about front sta-bar endlinks. But at least those things do not provide any kind of wheel location."""""
See pic below.

So the integral link didn't cross my mind at the time (I've never worked with one). Do you have anything else?

Tons of single shear thru out automotive history. When you have worked on thousands of cars that span more decades than anyone whos alive on this forum you see more than an S550 mustang Chassis.

Just so you know, I've almost completed my 73rd trip around the sun, and I've been working on cars as I needed (or wanted) to since my mid teens.

Well. Your criticism's .. & pulling short phrases does tell us all you critics actually read the post.....
No.. wait..
you chose to hear ..not read..
what you wanted..lol

When the post I'm replying to is as long and as rambling as yours was, I'm going to snip out what I'm not answering or commenting on.

As for people trying to build a race car out of a street car.?
Futile and wasted effort. Its a strret car or a race car. That Balance in between has been tried for decades and everyone with any stamina or financial strength.
Still ends up with a race car in the end.

Most people on forums like this one are not building all-out race cars. Not even trying to.

If you dont know what single shear is. Look at the pick we posted.

I'm BSCE 1970. Close to a 40 year engineering career (what's that, 80,000 hours?). I think I know what single shear is. Chances are looking pretty good that I knew what it was before you did.

Btw. If you truely do not now the difference between a RACE CAR AND A STREET CAR.
That rule is even SIMPLER.

Hot rods and sports cars both have always fallen somewhere in the middle.

Never mind that a street car could be anything from a Trabant or a 1950's VW to the latest Ferrari/McLaren/Lamborghini. Not sure what point you're trying to make with your simpler rule, unless it's that you'd better be able to justify a tow rig or else you don't belong out there on a real race track. Sorry if we can't all make that choice, or pay people like you to build our "wanna-be race cars" for us. Or maybe I'm not sorry.

Cuz I see a lot of intelligent people here who think math can solve all problems.
Once saw someone try to take the energy of the ring gear and convert it into wattage to develop a heat soak translation for why rear ends on these cars go into limp mode. While the guys with experience just shielded the exhaust from the rear differential and lowered the gear lube temps considerably.

That was one of my suggestions pretty early on. And I'm one of your "math guys" by profession. But I'm fully aware that you do still have to drive the damn thing to find out if what you thought was going to work . . . actually did work.

Actually, a good engineer does have a sense of the practical as well as having background in the theoretical. Something for you to think about.

Ohh..heck..
never mind.
This is just wasted typing. Nobody wants to hear the real truth. SIMPS Just wanna hear what they reinforces their own subconsciously trained believe systemsfrom what they read by marketing people...lol

Marketing people hate people like me.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

SCCA "T" classes are Touring wheel to wheel race classes closest to stock cars with rollcage and limited suspension mods on Dot-R tires.

The S550 Ecoboost and GT can fit in T1 and (GT2 runs slicks with lots of mods) in this discussion sphericals OK

The S550 GT can fit in T2 with delrin, poly or rubber

The S550 Ecoboost can fit in T2 more mods and T3 more stock with delrin, poly, or rubber

SCCA is more racing and very little Time trial. SCCA is not setup like NASA that has a very competitive Time Trial ladder where many cross class say TT2 (time trial) and ST2 (wheel to wheel racing). To get more tracktime in SCCA you would use say a S550 GT in T1 no restrictor @ 3450lbs and T2 50mm restrictor and add ballast @ 3600lbs

Thanks for clarifying this.

Yes, SCCA has always been more about W2W, and Time Trialing was added only in the last couple of years or so.

As a bit of background behind what I was looking at for solutions, I spent a few years here and a few more there with SCCA's autocross philosophies lurking in the background. It seems their Time Trialing carried over some of the Solo program's thinking (including this whole bushing thing for Time Trial/Tuner/T2).


Mostly I chose to ignore where the picky autocross rules put me, did what I wanted to for whatever reasons, and just got out there and ran for the experience and enjoyment.


Norm

 

[TeeLew]

never mind.
This is just wasted typing. Nobody wants to hear the real truth. L

If you've got something to add, Jack, add it. Otherwise, sod-off.

 

[Brian@BMVK]

If you've got something to add, Jack, add it. Otherwise, sod-off.

I'm guessing he's a Qanon guy too judging by the hyperbole and anger towards people of intellect.

 

[TeeLew]

I'm guessing he's a Qanon guy too judging by the hyperbole and anger towards people of intellect.

You read my mind.

 

[fatbillybob]

Just use Stainless Teflon lined Spherical's and you will be fine for many yrs of driving.

I would use spherical's in an instant but my race class only allows delrin, poly or rubber. I'll take your abilities and vast sum of knowledge at your word.

You know the S550's weird multilink suspension and the off-axis issues at the bushings.

Post up what your design would be for the RLCA (and the Front too) for those bushings in delrin. I really need a class legal solution.

 

[Jaymar]

I like that everyone's job is to try to pick out 1 thing in our post, and attempt to shred or twist some fact.

It's not that we're cherry picking your post, it's more like we can't make it all the way through your drivel and still remember what the point was.

 

[Dave TBG]

I agree that the term 'bind' isn't the best way to describe what's going on with compliant bushings. We're just sort of stuck with it, partly out of casual nontechnical usage being so common, and partly because a more accurate description takes too many words.


Norm

I bet you could write an accurate description while using fewer words than 308's post...

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