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Return Style system

Angrey

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You seem to have missed the memo about forum & facebook peeps are much smarter than the companies who designed and tested the hell outta these systems. Haha.
Listen, the adults are speaking. If you have nothing else to offer. Then scram. You're only contribution so far was an explanation that applies to no one. I spent $1800 on a badass dual pump return style setup, but I decided to buy puny pumps" - No one ever.
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WildHorse

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Listen, the adults are speaking.
Right. Your COMPREHENSION SKILLS are severely lacking. Maybe you'll understand this, GFY SKIPPY. Fore uses staged pumps, lethal does not. Lethal never had a problem, neither does fore. Don't try to reinvent the wheel with useless theoretical bullshit. Oh and BTW, even with bone f'ing stock factory pumps generally doing any hard driving with less then a 1/4 tank is a no-no.
 

SolarFlare

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There’s a very important difference here that @Angrey is missing. Fore doesn’t give a flying F about your car or mine, only with supplying pumps that are adequate for different power levels AND the reliability and longevity of said pumps. They will recommend whatever gives their pump the best trouble free operation and reliability. Your tuner is paid to look out for YOUR motor, not the fuel pump. Therefore they will recommend what gives the most longevity to YOUR motor. And if that means reducing the lifespan of a $120 pump by a few hours to protect you from spending $10k on a motor they will do it.

Believe it or not, no matter what that guy says, I’ve never boiled my fuel tank. Lmaooo!
 
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crcpdx

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Going back I asked if running a hobbs switch on the second pump was a good idea. After talking it out I got my answer. Good or bad aside it is obviously not necessary. Angrey, my post early might have sounded snarky, but I was serious. I read your other thread and found it interesting. Go build a prototype , test, test, test, put it onto production and when you pass a million in sales come back and say I told you so. I'll be happy for you when you do. Until then I think it is a little disrespectful to tell others who have already put in the blood sweat and tears that their product is lipstick on a pig.
 

Angrey

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Going back I asked if running a hobbs switch on the second pump was a good idea. After talking it out I got my answer. Good or bad aside it is obviously not necessary. Angrey, my post early might have sounded snarky, but I was serious. I read your other thread and found it interesting. Go build a prototype , test, test, test, put it onto production and when you pass a million in sales come back and say I told you so. I'll be happy for you when you do. Until then I think it is a little disrespectful to tell others who have already put in the blood sweat and tears that their product is lipstick on a pig.
It's not disrespectful if that's all the current market components can bare. it's just reality of what pieces are available.

Then someone in the marketplace develops a new component that opens up a whole new possibility of applications.

hell, you want to talk about lipstick on a pig, many of the GTR 1/2 mile guys are running gear driven cable MECHANICAL pumps because there's just nothing on the market that can satisfy their HP/flow needs without having an electrical system that would win stereo competitions.

I only started this journey because I started shopping for a high flow system and when I started researching, everywhere I came across "it'll work, but don't do this, or you must do this" and all sorts of fine print and disclaimers about how triple pumps would work, but you had to choose between this and this and couldn't have it all.

I'm not trying to disrespect lethal, I love them and they've been pioneers in MANY aspects and they're a great shop with a tremendous reputation. So if it's come off that way, I apologize, it's not been my intent. Jerad was the first one to run an aftermarket twin disc on a GT350, because up till that point, everyone said "can't be done, the 350 haz special harmonics...blah blah blah." They also paved the way with the first (or some of the first) blower 350's, they do a ton of cool and cutting edge stuff.

Hey, at the end of the day, it's your car. Do what you want, listen to who you want to. You're right. I'm a nobody. But that doesn't automatically make me wrong.
 

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Dominant1

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Well despite a little in fighting here and there on what to do with your fuel system, i must say I’ve changed my mind on what I’m going to do with my new Fore Innovations duel pump set up. Im gonna run both pumps full time, one of big reasons is that I’m running 93 with octane booster and race gas for track events.. not gonna run E85 at all. I'm gonna be running twin walbro Gss 342’s, which of course don't flow as much fuel as the 465’s, so the draw and heat shouldn’t be an issue. Thanks for all the input good and bad.
 

cchvyd28

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Are there really no return style fuel systems that use a bucket? Didn't the system that DeatschWerks offered a few months ago use a bucket? I have been eyeing a return system but the nearest E85 is 25-30 minutes away. So keeping it above 1/2 tank would likely consist of driving it one time between driving back to the gas station to fill up.
 

Angrey

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Are there really no return style fuel systems that use a bucket? Didn't the system that DeatschWerks offered a few months ago use a bucket? I have been eyeing a return system but the nearest E85 is 25-30 minutes away. So keeping it above 1/2 tank would likely consist of driving it one time between driving back to the gas station to fill up.
Deatschwerks just came out with their X2 bucket that will hold 2 39mm or 46mm pumps. Radium has a bucket setup for 2 pumps. It's hard to tell who actually makes the Division X/CPe hats but most of the triple pump setups ditch the bucket and some of the dual pump kits don't include it either.

The bucket is only part of the story, with high flow consumption, you have to have increased syphoning from the passive saddle side to keep the bucket fed (in low fuel situations). Even with a bucket, and even with much improved syphoning refilling the tank, in very high hp/E-85 setups, starving the stock bucket is a risk at lower fuel levels, which is why most kits just get rid of it.

Radium's bucket features a trap door/ball check valve which allows fuel in but not back out, and it's oriented such that left hand turns (inertia to the right) the trap door closes and keeps the fuel that was in the bucket and right hand turns (left hand inertia) the fuel is already coming over from the passenger side so is allowed into the bucket.

Radium also offers an improved syphon kit with different fittings so you can run the syphon off the return feed (and not have excessive backpressure) or you can run it off the feed pressure (and still get improved syphoning without totally degrading the feed pressure).

You can drill out the OEM venturi and improve it (using the return line to syphon) but it's a bandaid.

So to answer your question there are aftermarket bucket improvements (which obviously give you the features of the hat/hanger) but they add cost, so to keep things economical and because it's not a 100% elimination of the issue, most kits just omit it.

I wish there was a scientific/test way to determine it's benefits, so until someone like Radium does that there's no way to know for sure, but I wouldn't feel comfortable spending $15k on a built motor and a badass fuel system and WOT it with anything less than 1/2 tank and no bucket. The bucket just adds a little extra insurance when you start to get lower fuel level. How much more, I guess that's a good/unanswered question for now.
 
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crcpdx

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Alright alright enough of the half tank BS. Your veturi would have to be not working at all to lose fuel at half a tank. 1/4 tank is where you want to be careful
 

Angrey

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Alright alright enough of the half tank BS. Your veturi would have to be not working at all to lose fuel at half a tank. 1/4 tank is where you want to be careful
Depends on what your usage is. Guys who track these cars aren't even sucking up kegs of fuel and it's widely known that if you left hand turn the car for even more than turn onto the boulevard, you run the risk of a dry bucket.

In fact, when speaking with Aeromotive, one of the things they mentioned was their reluctance to pursue in tank applications for high hp because of the starvation issues associated with IRS/Saddle tanks (apparently it's even worse for the vette guys, they get complaints of starvation from the GM crowd all the time, big badass fuel setup and the GM even has a lift pump on the passive side that can't keep up sometimes).

For straight line jaunts, sure, 1/4 is probably okay (but pushing it). For anything more than changing lanes however, starving the pumps on an N/A setup is one thing, starving them out when you're at 12+ psi and 12:1 compression is a recipe for frownie face and wallet suck.

https://trackmustangsonline.com/threads/anyone-find-a-fix-for-fuel-sloshing-and-starvation.16346/
https://trackmustangsonline.com/thr...stang-gt-s550-development-thread.13411/page-8

"these cars will FUEL STARVE BADLY on a road course in left hand turns, so we almost never let this Mustang get below 1/2 tank of fuel"

"hydramat, fuel foam on the hump, etc aren’t big enough bandaids; you will still fuel starve on CCW configs under 1/2 tank, especially as you go up in power and/or switch to E85. plumbing in a fuel surge tank fixed all my problems:"

"I did a surge tank as well, I ran my tank all the way down to 6% and still had a solid flat 58psi at the rail at all times.

I'm working with a radium retailer to make a kit for S197 and S550 cars."
 

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Dominant1

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I always fill up at a 1/4 tank, even now with my stock pump, bucket & bap. I spoke with my tuner yesterday, he says your ok to go down to 1/4 tank then fill up. He also confirmed running dual pumps full time, the only time to use a hobbs switch is with a triple pump set up...
 

DavidHuff

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Why do not more after market fuel systems use the dual factory fuel delivery modules like Shaun at AED recommends?
 

Angrey

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Why do not more after market fuel systems use the dual factory fuel delivery modules like Shaun at AED recommends?
Most of them come with the option as a dropdown menu item. I think it's more user choice than anything. They do offer controllers for multiple pumps, or provisions for individual power and unified control.
 

wsfrazier

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I run 3 pumps hot with no hobbs, and just recently did a 400 mile trip letting the tank get as low as under 1/4 sometimes. 100% daily driver street car on pump e85. No issues. To each their own
 

Angrey

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I run 3 pumps hot with no hobbs, and just recently did a 400 mile trip letting the tank get as low as under 1/4 sometimes. 100% daily driver street car on pump e85. No issues. To each their own


4:40 to 5:50 on the video.

Yup, you're right. To each their own. Can you run it down less than 1/2 and survive? Sure, if you're Sunday cruising with grandma. When you REMOVE what little fuel baffling protection there is, and you MASH at less than 1/4 tank, it's a recipe for misery and regret.

The rule is, launch or WOT the car at less than 1/2 tank is a big risk. Behave accordingly. or seek a better mechanical system.
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