Return Style system

[Angrey]

LOL
If you pull the fuses one at a time , if one pump is down the car won’t start .
You can’t check the pump on a Hobbs switch that way .

That's great. While the car is sitting. Does nothing for you if the pump burns out WHILE YOU'RE DRIVING. The status light wouldn't be for the hobb switch, it would be for the pumps.

If the concern is the hobb switch failing, then yeah, monitoring that is more of a challenge. But I don't think anyone had mentioned that being a huge concern. Has there been a lot of reported engine nukes because a hobb switch failed?

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[olaosunt]

According to Lund , failures are common with the Hobbs switch .

I understand what you are saying BUT there is still utility in knowing you have ALL working pumps before you even start driving

if a pump fails while driving I agree having a status light might save you but having a fuel pressure gauge (and watching it ) may help too .

I have a fuel pressure gauge in all my cars and I watch them like a hawk going into boost (it’s hard to watch going down the 1/4 but I should ) and will lift if I don’t see the expected bump in boost (or it falls ).

I also use my E85 gauges , as the numbers start getting erratic once a pump fails .

 

[Angrey]

According to Lund , failures are common with the Hobbs switch .

I understand what you are saying BUT there is still utility in knowing you have ALL working pumps before you even start driving

if a pump fails while driving I agree having a status light might save you but having a fuel pressure gauge (and watching it ) may help too .

I have a fuel pressure gauge in all my cars and I watch them like a hawk going into boost (it’s hard to watch going down the 1/4 but I should ) and will lift if I don’t see the expected bump in boost (or it falls ).

I also use my E85 gauges , as the numbers start getting erratic once a pump fails .

Did you do a sending unit or are you one of those maniacs with a fuel line into the car through the fire wall?

I didn't realize Hobb switches were that unreliable. I posted in another thread about the woes of what the market currently offers for high flow fuel setups. That's going to change rapidly. No more staging. No more hobbs switch, or running pups at full bore sending way too much fuel back to the tank, etc. The market is on the verge of a much better approach. Those who demand more can piece together the components (which are there) but the mainstream marketplace and vendors are still a few months away from a single source "kit" that eliminates a lot of the detractors of the current offerings.

I've spoken (on the phone) with Aeromotive, Fore, Fuelab, Radium, Deatschwerks. Part of the problem is that they just don't recognize the market has a large enough need for a better system (cause everyone just concedes that triple staged return style systems are okay).

I wrote Lund (unless you have their number personally, they won't talk to you over the phone, which is why I'm probably going to switch tuners for my build) and as you might expect, they basically said "we're not interested in being a 'guinea pig' just use a Fore system."

There's a better way to do all of this. But everyone is content because they don't realize there's a more elegant approach.

 

[olaosunt]

LOL
Not one of those “maniacs” and have a sending unit .
The ford racing fuel pressure unit is nice but expensive . I have that in my GT 350 so it matches the boost gauge .
I have havw AMR ones in my 18GT(Matching oil temp ) and Hellion car.
Much cheaper but the one in the Hellion car has failed repeatedly .. guess you get what you pay .

18GT and GT350 also have FP PID you can log /watch with the N gauge

You obviously have the technical know how and I look forward to what you come up with .

 

[Angrey]

LOL
Not one of those “maniacs” and have a sending unit .
The ford racing fuel pressure unit is nice but expensive . I have that in my GT 350 so it matches the boost gauge .
I have havw AMR ones in my 18GT(Matching oil temp ) and Hellion car.
Much cheaper but the one in the Hellion car has failed repeatedly .. guess you get what you pay .

18GT and GT350 also have FP PID you can log /watch with the N gauge

You obviously have the technical know how and I look forward to what you come up with .

We've hijacked the thread a bit, but I'd be interested in getting your wisdom on switching my GT350 center guage cluster for the PP/Ecoboost cluster that has oil pressure and boost. I just don't want to run a coffee straw through the firewall to the boost guage and am trying to find one that has a sending unit.

Anyway, I'm very close to starting my build, and I have the build sheet/budget itemized for my fuel system. I'll post about it in a new thread in the future. It's a little more expensive than a full blow triple pump return style system (current) but not obnoxiously so. And if it all works properly should eliminate a ton of drawbacks. I suspect that if a vendor replicated what I've done they could offer it much lower (maybe for even the same price as the current top offerings) as all of my prices are full retail.

 

[5.0_SD]

I'm really looking forward to what @Angrey comes up with. I hope it's a simple install since I am a total noob with fuel systems and boost. I ran into a similar thing at my last job (Hospital IT); I had several ideas to make things more efficient, instead, they ignored me and said it is the way it is in this industry...basically they are saying no balls to try something new and better, content to provide the same 'ol same 'ol.

 

[Angrey]

I'm really looking forward to what @Angrey comes up with. I hope it's a simple install since I am a total noob with fuel systems and boost. I ran into a similar thing at my last job (Hospital IT); I had several ideas to make things more efficient, instead, they ignored me and said it is the way it is in this industry...basically they are saying no balls to try something new and better, content to provide the same 'ol same 'ol.

Most complicated part is the bucket mods. I'm planning on using the Radium bucket which only has 6 electrical through posts (2 for sending unit and 4 for 2 (each) 2 wire pumps). They offer a nifty kit with more posts that I'll drill 2 more (I'll spare you the brain damage on the details) but I've reviewed it with Radium and it should work. With the return and feed fittings on top and the electrical stuff, there's no bucket on the market that I can use the pump through fittings that come with them (they're too big) and not enough room with everything else in the way.

Radium's improved jet syphon kit comes with the bucket but they offer 3 different sizes of jets (depending on flow) and they typically use the return line to power the jet syphon. I have to purchase a different one separately (not a big deal). Then I don't want to use the return line to power the syphon (it won't have enough flow) so I'm going to rework to use the factory closed fittings on the pump (drilled, they come filled in) and route the return line with a duckbill into the bucket and pipe the pumps to the syphon.

Once that is done (and the bucket), the rest of the system and installation is no different than the typical kits on the market (regulator, fittings, hoses, wiring, etc).

I've actually sourced the ABSOLUTE best hose on the market for less than virtually everyone else charges for lesser steel braded PTFE.

And I've chosen Radium's filter with microglass, but there are more economical offerings on the market so I'm overpaying there a little.

The heavy weight of the system is basically the bucket, 2 pumps and the regulator. The rest is pretty standard stuff. I don't want to post up anything further until I actually install it all and it works.

 

[5.0_SD]

No no, don't post your complete build until you are completed. I've been fascinated with your posts about this...I like innovation and creativity, and this is certainly in that realm with what you are doing. Like I said, I'm a complete noob at this but it has been interesting reading about this. I don't have the funds for a SC or fuel system, just researching for when I can; I want to go down the E-85 path someday.

 

[FastCarFanBoy]

I can tell both my pumps are working by the sound they make when they prime.

 

[iownedu]

Does anyone offer a large SINGLE pump option? I don't like the thought of a 2nd or 3rd pump possibly failing and you wouldnt have a clue other than going lean if you were logging.

Atleast with a single pump if it fails the car doesn't fire.

 

[Angrey]

Does anyone offer a large SINGLE pump option? I don't like the thought of a 2nd or 3rd pump possibly failing and you wouldnt have a clue other than going lean if you were logging.

Atleast with a single pump if it fails the car doesn't fire.

Having one big single doesn't add any risk reduction. Unless you have multiple pumps and way more flow than you need, any pump failure (single setup, or second pump in a dual setup, etc) the motor is gonna go lean on the upper end.

There's single pump options to handle a ton of power, but none that will fit in a saddle bag style tank bucket. (tilted). It would have to be outside the tank (either in line pump or surge tank) and those solutions create other problems.

Anything can be done, it's whether or not the pros/cons of the approach are acceptable.

The whole IRS/saddle bag issue really constrains things. Fuelab offered a full kit for less than $2k for an 1800 hp capable system, single brushless in tank pump system, but it fits in the old style tanks (not in our newer stuff).

 

[WildHorse]

I was thinking of running only 1 pump constantly and putting the second pump on the switch as soon as boost comes in.

Why in the world would you wanna do it that way ??

 

[crcpdx]

Why in the world would you wanna do it that way ??

As I. Mentioned, less heat and less gas going around in circles. Fore stages their setup was curious why Lethal recommended running both full time

 

[WildHorse]

As I. Mentioned, less heat and less gas going around in circles. Fore stages their setup was curious why Lethal recommended running both full time

Probably because lethal uses lower capacity pumps. As for heat, you mean fuel pumps heating up? I wouldn't worry about that for a microsecond. But hey.. if you think your smarter than the people who designed it, run it your way. BTW I woulda went Fore Innovations from the get go. Cheers.

 

[Angrey]

Probably because lethal uses lower capacity pumps. As for heat, you mean fuel pumps heating up? I wouldn't worry about that for a microsecond. But hey.. if you think your smarter than the people who designed it, run it your way. BTW I woulda went Fore Innovations from the get go. Cheers.

What does he know?

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