Question: Paddle Shifting w/ A10

[v8hgt]

If only they had chosen to use the ZF HP8 box instead.

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[Cobra Jet]

I don’t agree with some of the comments regarding the A10, just as some of you won’t agree with this response.... LOL

The below is coming from an owner of a prior 2016 EB PP w/ 3.55’s & w/6R80.

Current vehicle:
2018 EB PP w/ 3.55’s & w/10R80

Also to note for those who do not know:
The A10 is an adaptive learning transmission. This means when an owner first takes possession of a new 2018 w/A10 - the trans has not learned or logged ANY driving habits at all. So for some, the A10 may feel or seem clunky or delayed - that is NORMAL. The trans needs to and will learn YOUR driving habits. Over time, you will notice the trans will become a lot less clunky or quirky and will level out as far as performance and functionality. IF you ever need to reset the adaptive learning, disconnect the battery, let the vehicle sit for a good 15 mins, reconnect battery and then start driving. The apdative learning is NOT an instant learning process, it takes a few weeks and miles of driving for the trans to adapt and relearn.

Regarding using the steering wheel paddles for down/up shifting with an A10, here’s some detailed info:

[1] In Normal (D) mode:
The Driver can manually up/downshift the vehicle to your desire. If the vehicle is in 10th gear, you can manually shift down to 7 with three very fast clicks.... if you want to go from 10 to 5, same thing. The trans responses very quickly to manually shifting - much faster and much smoother than than the prior 6R80. If you are at a dead stop in (D), click the paddle to set it in 1 - once you get moving, upshift as needed OR let the trans auto shift.

After initial vehicle start up, when the vehicle is in (D) and without driver intervention of touching the paddles, the trans is going to auto shift based on what it has adapated from learning the Driver’s driving habits. The trans will hold the gear long enough as preprogrammed from Ford’s mapping and will auto down/up shift as needed based on that mapping AND the adapted Driver’s habits. The transmission will select the BEST and most OPTIMUM gear needed - it does NOT always shift like 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 nor does it downshift through 10 consecutive gears.... it could go 1,3,5 or if downshifting, go 9,7,5.... you get the idea.

HOWEVER, if the driver intervenes while in (D) and clicks up/down with the paddles, the trans will hold the gear selected longer than the preprogrammed mode, but it will NOT redline and will auto shift out into the next gear IF the driver has not. The same is true for downshifting.


[2] In Sport (S) mode, the Driver has (2) options:

A) Touch the paddle and the trans is now controlled strictly by the Driver. This means if you click the paddle from a dead stop and start accelerating - the trans will NOT shift from 1 to 2 until the Driver makes the change manually. The car WILL hold the gear and WILL redline until the manual change is made. If the car was in motion and the Driver clicked a paddle (up or down), again, the trans WILL hold the current gear and CAN redline until the Driver makes the manual change.

B) If after vehicle start up, the Driver selected (S) initially and has NOT touched the paddles at all - in (S) the car will hold out the gears much longer than if in (D); the trans WILL auto shift but will NOT hold the gear out to redline based on the preprogrammed mapping from Ford. IF while driving, the user moves the shifter from (D) to (S) and the Driver does NOT touch the paddles, again the trans will react exactly in the same manner where it’s following the preprogrammed mapping from Ford.

Back to manually shifting with paddles:
There is NO comparison in manually shifting the 10R80 vs the 6R80... The A10 trans is by far light years ahead of the 6R80 in ALL aspects. The gear selection, whether being performed manually via the paddles OR allowing the trans to auto up/downshift on its own is extremely responsive. The quicker the Driver manually up/downshifts via the paddles, the trans can quickly get into that selected gear with practically NO delay. I’ve shifted from 10 down to 6 in the matter of less than 1-2 seconds - the trans responds immediately and gets into the chosen gear without issues. The same is true with manually shifting from a dead stop OR if needing to accelerate while over taking traffic when needed - the trans responds instantaneously to the Driver input.

Again, as the trans learns the Driver’s habits over time, it’s going to adapt far better to your input as to when the vehicle was brand spanking new off the lot.

My 2018 is driven daily and I have almost 2k miles, the A10 is performing flawlessly. Compared to the 6R80, the 6R80 was extremely clunky when in Sport (S) mode, whether it was manually downshifting shifting the trans or letting it auto downshift it was just not smooth. Even with upshifting the 6R80 while in Sport mode, auto up shifts were very delayed and sometimes it felt like it would not get out of gear. With the A10, I don’t feel any jerkiness or clunkiness with the upshifts or downshifts when in Sport mode, the trans is extremely smooth and there’s almost no “transition” felt between the gears when allowing it to auto shift. Sure, you can audibly hear the shifts, but from within the vehicle there’s no major physical jerkiness felt at all, it just glides into the gear.

I’m not saying that the A10 is the best out there, nor am I saying it out performs the MT82.

REAR END GEAR RATIO WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE AS WELL IN HOW THE VEHICLE PERFORMS!

For those who have NEVER driven an S550 w/ A10, this is what I’ll leave those with who are looking to buy a 2018 w/A10 option be it a GT or EB:

There is NO comparison to the 6R80 if you have experience with that transmission.

Go to your local Dealer, test drive one - drive it like you stole it... Take it out on a highway for about 20 minutes and a few miles of real drive time to experience the BEST on road experiences to make a sound decision. You CANNOT get any real opinion or feeling if your Salesman is taking you for a “round the block” test drive...

1) Drive it distance on a highway first playing in (D) mode allowing the trans to auto shift. Then while in (D), manually paddle shift it.

2) After driving in (D), throw it in Sport (S) and drive the same route, again allowing the car to auto shift THEN manually paddle shift it.

THAT is how you determine if the A10 option is for you or not. Sure, this forum can help with some decisions, but honestly, actual drive and seat time is going to really determine what YOU will be buying.

 

[Rash]

With the A10, I don’t feel any jerkiness or clunkiness with the upshifts or downshifts when in Sport mode, the trans is extremely smooth and there’s almost no “transition” felt between the gears when allowing it to auto shift. Sure, you can audibly hear the shifts, but from within the vehicle there’s no major physical jerkiness felt at all, it just glides into the gear.

That has not been my experience at all - daily driver, 1500 miles. I definitely can feel the shift at times - I don't mind it, it is Sport mode after all. But there are definitely firm shifts. I also get a bit of jerkiness, even slight bounciness when it upshifts from 4th to 5th, especially if going uphill. And it is reluctant to downshift from 5th back to 4th with pedal pressure in that situation. Just this morning, I was doing about 30 mph going through my neighborhood slightly uphill. It upshifted to 5th when I didn't think it should have - was lugging up the hill and felt like I was slowing down. I gave it firm pedal to downshift, it wouldn't at first, and then it clunked and bounced into fourth.

Overall, I think it's a great tranny, but it does have it's quirks, and that's the one I notice the most - upshifts too early at times and reluctant to downshift again when it does. I thought maybe it was just in D mode, but it happens in S as well, as it did this morning. I would just paddle downshift in that situation but in S mode that causes it to stay in manual mode. Too much work to paddle shift, then have to shift to D and back to S to get it back to auto S mode.

 

[Enoch]

That’s a great write up CJ thanks for taking the time to post your experience with the new transmission

 

[nastang87xx]

If only they had chosen to use the ZF HP8 box instead.

At times I agree and others I don't. I think 8 is a good number to be at though too. 10 seems to be a bit overkill. But then there are times I don't agree with myself on that either.

 

[c-rizzle]

Your probably going to better off leaving it in drive or sport, it will automatically shift from 10th down to 3rd when you mash the gas faster than you could flip the paddles

Yep, put it in Sport or Track mode and let the Auto do its work.

 

[Lonmon]

A Lund tune did wonders for the shifting in drive mode to be less wimpy. I have still been averaging better then 24mpg when driving gently to and from work. When I decide to drive more aggressively it responds much better with less throttle input.

 

[DickR]

The A10 is an adaptive learning transmission. This means when an owner first takes possession of a new 2018 w/A10 - the trans has not learned or logged ANY driving habits at all. So for some, the A10 may feel or seem clunky or delayed - that is NORMAL. The trans needs to and will learn YOUR driving habits. Over time, you will notice the trans will become a lot less clunky or quirky and will level out as far as performance and functionality. IF you ever need to reset the adaptive learning, disconnect the battery, let the vehicle sit for a good 15 mins, reconnect battery and then start driving. The apdative learning is NOT an instant learning process, it takes a few weeks and miles of driving for the trans to adapt and relearn.

Do you have any Ford documentation which supports the bolded words?

I cannot find anything in the FSM about adapting to driving habits.

The owner manual does include the following:

Automatic Transmission Adaptive Learning
This feature is designed to increase durability and provide consistent shift feel over the life of your vehicle. A new vehicle or transmission may have firm or soft shifts. This operation is normal and does not affect function or durability of the transmission. Over time, the adaptive learning process fully updates transmission operation. Additionally, whenever you disconnect the battery or install a new battery, the system must relearn the strategy.

I have about 2000 miles of both very easy and very hard driving on mine and the shift characteristics still seem to be dependent on how I'm driving it at the time and what shifter position and drive mode I'm in. The only other change is that there appeared to be a barely noticeable "shudder" as the transmission automatically downshifted in D when I came to a stop that seems to be completely gone now that I have significant miles on the car.

I realize that Ford may not want to encourage customers to drive the crap out of our cars to influence how they behave and therefore don't include this info in the owner manual but I would expect there to be some documentation in the FSM.

Thanks.

 

[modru2004]

Do you have any Ford documentation which supports the bolded words?

I cannot find anything in the FSM about adapting to driving habits.

The owner manual does include the following:



I have about 2000 miles of both very easy and very hard driving on mine and the shift characteristics still seem to be dependent on how I'm driving it at the time and what shifter position and drive mode I'm in. The only other change is that there appeared to be a barely noticeable "shudder" as the transmission automatically downshifted in D when I came to a stop that seems to be completely gone now that I have significant miles on the car.

I realize that Ford may not want to encourage customers to drive the crap out of our cars to influence how they behave and therefore don't include this info in the owner manual but I would expect there to be some documentation in the FSM.

Thanks.

adaptive learning transmissions have been a thing since around 2010ish when 6 speeds first started hitting the scene in most models if thats what your asking.

 

[Timeless]

adaptive learning transmissions have been a thing since around 2010ish when 6 speeds first started hitting the scene in most models if thats what your asking.

My 2005 E55 AMG had this...been around for quite some time.

 

[DickR]

adaptive learning transmissions have been a thing since around 2010ish when 6 speeds first started hitting the scene in most models if thats what your asking.

First, I really like the transmission and what the engineers have done with the various shifting options.

What I'm actually trying to find is actual Ford documentation which explains what "adaptive learning" actually means in regarding to changing the shift calibration strategy under different long term and short term driving styles/situations. Specifically with the 10R80 which is very different from previous Ford transmissions.

Ford owner manual and FSM info imply that "adaptive" is for fine tuning shift "feel" and maybe shifting strategy in new transmissions and with replacement components. The documentation is silent on any long term or even short term adaptation to driving style.

 

[Spork3245]

First, I really like the transmission and what the engineers have done with the various shifting options.

What I'm actually trying to find is actual Ford documentation which explains what "adaptive learning" actually means in regarding to changing the shift calibration strategy under different long term and short term driving styles/situations. Specifically with the 10R80 which is very different from previous Ford transmissions.

Ford owner manual and FSM info imply that "adaptive" is for fine tuning shift "feel" and maybe shifting strategy in new transmissions and with replacement components. The documentation is silent on any long term or even short term adaptation to driving style.

What else would it be adapting to or learning from if not the driver and the way they are driving?

 

[modru2004]

First, I really like the transmission and what the engineers have done with the various shifting options.

What I'm actually trying to find is actual Ford documentation which explains what "adaptive learning" actually means in regarding to changing the shift calibration strategy under different long term and short term driving styles/situations. Specifically with the 10R80 which is very different from previous Ford transmissions.

Ford owner manual and FSM info imply that "adaptive" is for fine tuning shift "feel" and maybe shifting strategy in new transmissions and with replacement components. The documentation is silent on any long term or even short term adaptation to driving style.

it literally just monitors your habits and adjusts to fit. ie: if you drive like a grandma it adjusts the shift strategy to match. so it won't hold gears and will short shift to match.

if you are an aggressive driver you might see it hold gears longer before shifting. it also changes what gears it picks based on this data.

ie: you might see a 1st to 3rd to 8 or 10 or whatever.

it does this based on how you drive the car. if you are looking for the exact algorithm ford uses to determine these metrics you are gonna have to take that up with ford corporate.

 

[DickR]

What else would it be adapting to or learning from if not the driver and the way they are driving?

Good question. This patent has a pretty good description of what "needs" adapting. Note that this patent's statements are consistent with the Mustang owner manual statement I quoted previously.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4969098

Selected portion quoted below

Additionally, it should be appreciated that such hydraulically controlled transmission systems cannot readily adjust themselves in the field to compensate for varying conditions such as normal wear on the components, temperature swings and changes in engine performance over time. While each transmission is designed to operate most efficiently within certain specific tolerances, typical hydraulic control systems are incapable of taking self-corrective action on their own to maintain operation of the transmission at peak efficiency.

However, in recent years, a more advanced form of transmission control system has been proposed, which would offer the possibility of enabling the transmission to adapt itself to changing conditions. In this regard, U.S. Pat. No. 3,956,947, issued on May 18, 1976 to Leising, et al., which is hereby incorporated by reference, sets forth a fundamental development in this field. Specifically, this patent discloses an automatic transmission design which features an "adaptive" control system that includes electrically operated solenoid-actuated valves for controlling certain fluid pressures. In accordance with this electric/hydraulic control system, the automatic transmission would be "responsive" to an acceleration factor for controlling the output torque of the transmission during a shift from one ratio of rotation (between the input and output shafts of the transmission) to another. Specifically, the operation of the solenoid-actuated valves would cause a rotational speed versus time curve of a sensed rotational component of the transmission to substantially follow along a predetermined path during shifting.

3. Objects of the Present Invention

It is one of the principal objects of the present invention to provide a significantly advanced electronically controlled transmission which is fully adaptive. By fully adaptive, it is meant that substantially all shifts are made using closed-loop control (i.e. control based on feedback). In particular, the control is closed loop on speed, speed ratio, or slip speed of either Nt (turbine of the torque converter) and Ne (engine) or a combination of Nt and No (outPut) which will provide the speed ratio or slip speed. This transmission control is also capable of "learning" from past experience and making appropriate adjustments on that basis.

Another object of the present invention is to provide an automatic transmission in which the shift quality is maintained approximately uniform regardless of the engine size, within engine performance variations or component condition (i.e. the transmission control system will adapt to changes in engine performance or in the condition of the various frictional units of the transmission).

It is a more specific object of the present invention to provide a method of matching torque build-up of an apply element to the torque fall-off of a release element for shifting an automatic transmission.

It is a further object of the present invention to achieve exceptionally smooth, yet quick kickdown shifts (i.e. second to first gear), and in so doing, make any power train feel more responsive without increasing harshness. Being adaptive, these controls will be capable of compensating for changes in engine or friction element torque, and provide consistent shift quality over the life of the transmission.

This application is one of several applications filed on the same date, all commonly assigned and having similar Specification and Drawings, these applications being identified below.

Here is the adaptive learning drive cycle in the 2018 Mustang FSM which is required whenever the main valve body is replaced and/or a new transmission strategy is downloaded.

307-01 Automatic Transmission 2018 Mustang
General Procedures Procedure revision date: 01/13/2017

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Adaptive Learning Drive Cycle
Activation

NOTE: Perform the adaptive learning drive cycle on a level road surface.

NOTE: The engine and transmission must be at normal operating temperature with the transmission fluid at the correct level.

Record then clear the DTCs (Diagnostic Trouble Codes).

Warm the engine and transmission to normal operating temperature.

Accelerate from a stop with light throttle (15%) ensuring that the 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, 4-5, 5-6, 6-7, 7-8 shifts occur at engine speeds between 1300-1600 rpm.

Continue to accelerate (may apply slightly more throttle after 7-8 upshift at 32-38 mph (51-61 km/h) until you achieve 55 mph (88 km/h) and the 8-9 and 9-10 shifts complete.

Brake very gently to a complete stop and hold foot on brake for five (5) seconds.

Perform a Neutral to Reverse engagement.

Repeat Steps 3 through 6 six additional times.

Copyright © Ford Motor Company

The "problem" I have with long term "adaptive to the driver" adaptive learning is that most of us drive differently in different situations because we use the cars for daily driving as well as various levels of "not like a grandma" driving. Therefore there needs to be short term capability to adapt to us "getting serious". I suspect that that kind of adaption is independent of what we've done for the last 2000 miles. Some changes are clearly part of the D vs S calibration and from my experience may also vary based on drive mode.

Interesting topic, at least to me.

 

[GreenS550]

In my SHO if you're in Manual mode and nail it, the trans will downshift as many gears as needed for you and it's up to you to upshift. Does the Mustang work the same way?

I had a SHO and it was similar, but had the old protection stuff built in.

On my '15 A6, when you put the car in to sport mode and you use the paddles, it becomes totally manual. If you floor it in say, 4th it will not downshift in to 2nd or 3rd. When you come to a stop, the transmission will go in to 1st. But the car stays manual even till you hit the rev limiter. Up and down shifts are quick. I have an LMS tune, and don't remember the car before this, but if you drive manual/sport on a regular basis you get spoiled when you get in to a stick shift car. You simply cannot shift as fast as these autos do.

I imagine the A10 is even better. Truly spoils you from loving a clutch car...

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