Please Educate Me - Why No Spoiler On Performance Pack?

[Sekhon]

I understand they have lost a bit of their audience but they still seem to be the top dog.

I agree with you on the noise.

Want to talk about noise.... One of the Indycar races I went to had a race with electric open wheel cars before the big race. I just couldn't get over how weird it was seeing these cars zip by all silent like.

Those electric cars sounds like those electric gokarts at Andretti's . But yeah compared to NASCAR, i think F-1 still has a bigger fanbase since NASCAR is only within US.

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[wireeater]

Oh boy....a dong slinging contest! LOL

This is what happens when people can't admit to being wrong.

 

[tom_sprecher]

Indeed! Einstein has come to realize this could actually be fun.

 

[Grintch]

At highway speeds they are for looks only. Even above an real benefit requires hours of testing in a wind tunnel, otherwise they cause drag.

Wings are a different thing entirely.

The original faulty statement.

Wings also cause drag, and they also take wind tunnel testing to be really useful.
Most "wings" on street cars are not even wing shaped. And are just as useless as most spoilers on street cars. Both "designed" by the marketing department rather than as real aerodynamic devices. So not "a different thing entirely".

Effective aero is based on a good lift (or downforce) to drag. A stock body almost always generates lift. You can reduce lift AND drag with a well designed spoiler. Bigger spoilers can generate downforce with a drag penalty. Really big spoilers aren't very efficient.

So generally a small spoiler beats a small wing.
A medium wing mounted in clear air beats a medium spoiler (but probably not in dirty air).
A big wing is a lot better than a big spoiler. Where big spoilers succeed is where big wings aren't allowed (NASCAR).

Even big wings can't generate drive on the ceiling levels of downforce without a lot of drag. So almost all cars with that much downforce use groundforce tunnels or diffusers to more efficiently create downforce.

So no more mixing oranges, apples, and peaches.

 

[Muff Muff]

Incorrect! Spoilers and wings operate on the same aerodynamic principle! Reducing lift. Creates down force. You can't have one without the other. :doh: Real intelligent statement there with your cliff notes Einstein.

Wrong.

Spoilers work on the principle of spoiling the turbulent air coming off of the roof of the car (hence the name spoiler). This minimizes the low pressure zone created by the turbulent air, which reduces the intrinsic lift that would otherwise exist from the low pressure zone alone. Spoilers do not create downforce, they reduce lift.

Wings, and airfoils in general, use a high pressure zone and a low pressure zone, created from low velocity air and high velocity air, respectively, to create lift/downforce, depending on the orientation of the wing. Wings do nothing to "spoil" already turbulent air, and they actually require laminar flow to function properly.

Credentials: I have a degree in Physics. Also this:

 

[CB]

Here's what I know about spoilers and wings. The dirt track late models have big spoilers all over them. And once a year the local half mile dirt track has a run what you brung race. One guy shows up with a sprint car wing fastened to his roof roll bars. It cut more than two seconds off his lap times.

 

[JmalB]

:doh: Who says F1 is the highest end of motor sports?? Was there a pole taken recently? I most have missed that while I was waiting for you to post something other than photos.:shrug: In this country. F1 gets about a 10th of the viewership of Nascar. Look it up. See more general statements from you. Get back to me with some more photos or try to actually back up your original statement that wings are great and spoilers do nothing with science. Good luck.

Viewership in the U.S. is your measurement criteria? Try money invested. Technology in use. F1 has pneumatically operated valves, hybrid drivetrains, and active aero (sort of). NASCAR just recently allowed fuel injection. At one time F1 had active suspension technology that would actually lean the cars into the turns. It was banned decades ago. NASCAR is still running around with a solid axle out back.

Global Rallycross, WRC, Pirelli World Challenge, DTM, Australian Touring Car. They're all more advanced forms of racing than NASCAR.

 

[CB]

But at least in NASCAR you can see punches being thrown and guys calling other guys shit heads. lol

 

[tom_sprecher]

The original faulty statement.

Wings also cause drag, and they also take wind tunnel testing to be really useful.
Most "wings" on street cars are not even wing shaped. And are just as useless as most spoilers on street cars. Both "designed" by the marketing department rather than as real aerodynamic devices. So not "a different thing entirely".

Effective aero is based on a good lift (or downforce) to drag. A stock body almost always generates lift. You can reduce lift AND drag with a well designed spoiler. Bigger spoilers can generate downforce with a drag penalty. Really big spoilers aren't very efficient.

So generally a small spoiler beats a small wing.
A medium wing mounted in clear air beats a medium spoiler (but probably not in dirty air).
A big wing is a lot better than a big spoiler. Where big spoilers succeed is where big wings aren't allowed (NASCAR).

Even big wings can't generate drive on the ceiling levels of downforce without a lot of drag. So almost all cars with that much downforce use groundforce tunnels or diffusers to more efficiently create downforce.

So no more mixing oranges, apples, and peaches.

Just for some background I do not have any experience with spoilers or wings on street cars. However, I have designed and built single and dual element front and rear wings, diffusers, fences, wicker bills, etc. for formula cars, specifically SCCA Formula Continental which from you avatar I am sure you are familiar with. These cars do not operate at highway speeds and test results from technical tracks with low average speeds (CMP, AMP) did not show much improvement when we changed a variable. High average speed tracks (Daytona, Road Atlanta, Roebling) did indeed show a measurable difference in lap times.

From that I feel that just about any aerodynamic device sold for use on a street car does not make much of a difference AT HIGHWAY SPEEDS and due to drag from the designs I have seen most likely harm speed and mileage.

Again, I have to reiterate that in my statement I never made a comparison, voiced an opinion or made claim about the superiority of either spoilers or wings. At the most I said they are different. Please do not put words or intent into what I write in a post. Thank you.

 

[carguy231]

Not quite sure I understand this. The PP replaces the "Track" package yet removes the spoiler. Wouldn't the spoiler be beneficial in a track application?

Mine has one... Now.

PS It is for looks - not performance.

Mike E
17 GT PP Recaro, manual, etc.
05 Mustang GT Premium, manual, etc.

 

[bluebeastsrt]

Wrong.

Spoilers work on the principle of spoiling the turbulent air coming off of the roof of the car (hence the name spoiler). This minimizes the low pressure zone created by the turbulent air, which reduces the intrinsic lift that would otherwise exist from the low pressure zone alone. Spoilers do not create downforce, they reduce lift.

Wings, and airfoils in general, use a high pressure zone and a low pressure zone, created from low velocity air and high velocity air, respectively, to create lift/downforce, depending on the orientation of the wing. Wings do nothing to "spoil" already turbulent air, and they actually require laminar flow to function properly.

Credentials: I have a degree in Physics. Also this:

we all have a physics degree on the interweb. Explain why engineers at GM choose to use a spoiler on their flag ship corvettes ZR1 & ZO6 to create down force? Because according to you that's not a spoiler's purpose. Here's a few links without all the fancy terminology for the common folk. All these links sure do talk a lot about down force when referring to the zo6 spoiler. They most all be wrong also.

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/vemp-1006-corvette-wings-spoilers/

http://www.torquenews.com/106/closer-look-three-aero-packages-2015-corvette-z06?page=2

http://katechengines.com/street_performance/downloads/Katech wind tunnel data report.pdf

 

[Sekhon]

But at least in NASCAR you can see punches being thrown and guys calling other guys shit heads. lol

LMAOO :lol:

 

[bluebeastsrt]

Viewership in the U.S. is your measurement criteria? Try money invested. Technology in use. F1 has pneumatically operated valves, hybrid drivetrains, and active aero (sort of). NASCAR just recently allowed fuel injection. At one time F1 had active suspension technology that would actually lean the cars into the turns. It was banned decades ago. NASCAR is still running around with a solid axle out back.

Global Rallycross, WRC, Pirelli World Challenge, DTM, Australian Touring Car. They're all more advanced forms of racing than NASCAR.

Until the S550 showed up. The Mustang was running around with a solid axle. It's not like the S550 is loaded with F1 technology. My point was all professional racing. Weather it be Top fuel drag racing or F1 all spend countless hours testing and advancing their craft. Because you prefer F1. Doesn't make it the king of motor sports. There is just as much science in drag racing trying to harness 8000HP. As there is in rally racing setting up a car to run on dirt. To Nascar using old school technology to lap a track 500 times at 160MPH. It's a disservice to all other racing branches to arbitrarily call F1 king!

 

[Grintch]

Just for some background I do not have any experience with spoilers or wings on street cars. However, I have designed and built single and dual element front and rear wings, diffusers, fences, wicker bills, etc. for formula cars, specifically SCCA Formula Continental which from you avatar I am sure you are familiar with. These cars do not operate at highway speeds and test results from technical tracks with low average speeds (CMP, AMP) did not show much improvement when we changed a variable. High average speed tracks (Daytona, Road Atlanta, Roebling) did indeed show a measurable difference in lap times.

From that I feel that just about any aerodynamic device sold for use on a street car does not make much of a difference AT HIGHWAY SPEEDS and due to drag from the designs I have seen most likely harm speed and mileage.

Again, I have to reiterate that in my statement I never made a comparison, voiced an opinion or made claim about the superiority of either spoilers or wings. At the most I said they are different. Please do not put words or intent into what I write in a post. Thank you.

Who buys a 435hp car to never go more than 70? The car will go 165, and at that speed aero will matter a lot. I bet it will hit 120+ even at a short track like TGPR.

But yes, probably me misinterpreting you saying wings were different. They are, but not in terms of producing drag, etc.

So, do you still have the IT7?

 

[Sekhon]

Until the S550 showed up. The Mustang was running around with a solid axle. It's not like the S550 is loaded with F1 technology. My point was all professional racing. Weather it be Top fuel drag racing or F1 all spend countless hours testing and advancing their craft. Because you prefer F1. Doesn't make it the king of motor sports. There is just as much science in drag racing trying to harness 8000HP. As there is in rally racing setting up a car to run on dirt. To Nascar using old school technology to lap a track 500 times at 160MPH. It's a disservice to all other racing branches to arbitrarily call F1 king!

I am assuming what he means by his statement is that, the reason why F1 is/was the pinnacle of motorsport was because of their innovative technologies which then trickles down into your everyday road cars. Technologies like active suspension, DCT, KERS, TCS, carbon fiber etc were first introduced in F-1 cars and then brought down in the everyday road cars. There is definitely a good amount of engineering that goes into it but not nearly to the level of F-1. F-1 has changed alot in the past 20 years. I dont know how much NASCAR or drag racing has changed.

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