Please Do Not Run E-85 on Stock Injectors.

[..::Ryan::..]

My offer still stands, if you are local to Austin, TX and are running one of these flex fuel or e85 tunes I will datalog your car for free. I don't even need to drive it, I can just ride passenger and do the logging.

This would literally take about 15-20mins, and most of that time is driving to a highway with a 85mph speed limit so you can do some good 2nd and 3rd WOT pulls with out the fear of speeding.

If you need someone in San Antonio, let me know. Running a Lund FF.

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[3beeps]

Some people in this thread said there was a recent update to get a PID for IDC. Is that true? If so, is it an nGauge update or a tune update?

 

[Need4Speed15]

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?55440-HP-Tuners-nGauge
Wrong

Wrong..

http://e-motionproducts.com/products/nGauge.html

 

[Need4Speed15]

People are free to do what they want but why risk your $7000 motor over a $250 set of injectors that will give you back the same safe fueling overhead as the stock injectors give on plain 91 or 93 gas? This is why i started this thread. I have zero to gain from it I don't tune anyone else's mustangs just mine. I'm just trying to help overt possible disaster for some. It's a thin line some are wis.lking.

I hear ya and I think those with a manifold swap and anything over 7500rpm shifts its a must.

Basically this thread and how you presented it is saying that Lund and Livernois are putting out dangerous tunes. I don't know how anyone can think either of those two companies didn't do proper R&D with the Flex Fuel tunes and the stock injectors. Additionally they have been tested throughly over the last 10 months by who knows how many end users.

I do hear what your saying, better safe then sorry. But when Jon II at Lund provides me a tune and reviews multiple logs and says I'm good to go then I trust him. I've had lots of correspondance with Jon and he has always been very detailed and meticulous. He is not going to provide an unsafe tune and he is not going to provide tuning service for a combination he feels is unsafe. That's just the type of guy he is. He also has his own S550 A6.

 

[Terminator2]

I hear ya and I think those with a manifold swap and anything over 7500rpm shifts its a must.

Basically this thread and how you presented it is saying that Lund and Livernois are putting out dangerous tunes. I don't know how anyone can think either of those two companies didn't do proper R&D with the Flex Tunes and the stock injectors. Additionally they have been tested throughly over the last 10 months by who knows how many end users.

I do hear what your saying, better safe then sorry. But when Jon II at Lund provides me a tune and reviews multiple logs and says I'm good to go then I trust him.

From what I'm seeing in others flex fuel logs (I've only seen 2 so far) are not even showing IPW or IDC so effectively flying blind injector and fuel wise other than seeing a/f and fuel trims. These cars especially those on stock headers and intake manifolds might be holding commanded just fine but most are probably too close for comfort as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Terminator2]

Some people in this thread said there was a recent update to get a PID for IDC. Is that true? If so, is it an nGauge update or a tune update?

It's a hp tuners based scanner update that now allows us to log IDC we just got it about a month ago.

 

[Terminator2]

Wrong..

http://e-motionproducts.com/products/nGauge.html

From everything I've read that company may make the ngauge but it's software is HP Tuners based.

 

[3beeps]

It's a hp tuners based scanner update that now allows us to log IDC we just got it about a month ago.

So there's no nGauge firmware update to be able to log this? It's just available if you log with HPTuners?

 

[Terminator2]

So there's no nGauge firmware update to be able to log this? It's just available if you log with HPTuners?

If it's using HPT based software the PID for IDC will be there now with the ngauge. It most likely wasn't before unless the made a custom PID to calculate IDC using IPW and rpm.

 

[Terminator2]

http://www.*******************/foru...ors-do-you-need-them-or-not-for-E85-Flex-fuel

This exactly mirrors my findings in my data logs. Around 45lbs/min corrected airflow the stock injectors are maxed out on E-85. His math is pretty much spot on with what I've seen myself.

It's so annoying this site won't let you link to other forums.

Goggle Search : "Injectors do you need them or not E-85/FF" SVT PERFORMANCE FROUM

 

[Dosia]

Im running Shauns flex tune and he wont even tune if you dont upgrade your injectors (e85). Like he says.. better safe than sorry.

 

[Need4Speed15]

http://www.s v tperformance.com/forums/showthread.php?1114521-Injectors-do-you-need-them-or-not-for-E85-Flex-fuel

Just cut and paste and take out the spaces between s v t

 

[Terminator2]

Im running Shauns flex tune and he wont even tune if you dont upgrade your injectors (e85). Like he says.. better safe than sorry.

I agree 100%. That's why I put this thread up "better safe than killing a $7000 motor over a $250 set of injectors!" I've honestly been shocked at some of the responses. I've gotten a lot of negative responses questioning my tuning ability and my data and defending the "big" tuners who say it's ok to run the stock injectors in spite of it appearing that they are not even data logging injectors pulse width and injector duty duty cycle just fuel pump duty cycle. Basically flying blind other than just watching the wideband a/f. I've been tuning since early 08 and though I might be new to the new tricore pcm I do actually understand tuning a lot better than most here seem to think.

 

[markmurfie]

Get the injectors to be safe or trust that your tuner knows what they are doing. There have been no reports of the stock injector FF tunes causing problems from the tuners that offer it. Earlier the logs posted from a lund tune showed +/-1% fuel trims. This is an example of how well it needs to be dialed in. It was stated that your car is tuned to have fuel trims just as good. My claim is they are no where near as good. Ill agree that using the stock injectors with E85 you are right at the edge of safe and unsafe. This is where having your tune really dialed in comes into play, there's not much room for error in your MAF.

Compare your commanded lambda vs actual against this commanded lambda vs actual. This is taken from my 2015. Saying you have yours dialed in and tuned right is just false. you cant blame this on the pid being wrong either. If thats true how did you tune it? Wishful thinking? Also If thats true HPT is just not safe to use. In reality it is, if you know what you are doing and spend the time to do it right. Im calling out what I see, Im sorry if I offend your tuning ability. Please stop comparing how well you tune to how well these "big tuners" tune because it just doesnt look like you are even close to them. Just as sean@AED did its easy to see where the stock injectors max out. Watch the properly tuned MAF value and you don't need IDC/IPW. If I sold tunes and had the liability of someones engine blowing up Id make them get the bigger injectors. Others may be more confident in there tuning skills and would be willing to accept the risk. I added the STFT to the pic incase you want to compare how that looks to yours because I think thats what you use to tune MAF.

Do you need bigger injectors to run E85 in a 2015+ mustang GT with and cai and headers? This really does depend on your future mods, the tuner, and you should talk to them. If you are self tuning and don't know the answer go with the bigger injectors.

 

[Terminator2]

Get the injectors to be safe or trust that your tuner knows what they are doing. There have been no reports of the stock injector FF tunes causing problems from the tuners that offer it. Earlier the logs posted from a lund tune showed +/-1% fuel trims. This is an example of how well it needs to be dialed in. It was stated that your car is tuned to have fuel trims just as good. My claim is they are no where near as good. Ill agree that using the stock injectors with E85 you are right at the edge of safe and unsafe. This is where having your tune really dialed in comes into play, there's not much room for error in your MAF.

Compare your commanded lambda vs actual against this commanded lambda vs actual. This is taken from my 2015. Saying you have yours dialed in and tuned right is just false. you cant blame this on the pid being wrong either. If thats true how did you tune it? Wishful thinking? Also If thats true HPT is just not safe to use. In reality it is, if you know what you are doing and spend the time to do it right. Im calling out what I see, Im sorry if I offend your tuning ability. Please stop comparing how well you tune to how well these "big tuners" tune because it just doesnt look like you are even close to them. Just as sean@AED did its easy to see where the stock injectors max out. Watch the properly tuned MAF value and you don't need IDC/IPW. If I sold tunes and had the liability of someones engine blowing up Id make them get the bigger injectors. Others may be more confident in there tuning skills and would be willing to accept the risk. I added the STFT to the pic incase you want to compare how that looks to yours because I think thats what you use to tune MAF.

Do you need bigger injectors to run E85 in a 2015+ mustang GT with and cai and headers? This really does depend on your future mods, the tuner, and you should talk to them. If you are self tuning and don't know the answer go with the bigger injectors.

I need to delete that commanded EQ PID in my scanner that was one of the defaults and it is not in any way accurate. My commaded PE lambda in my tune is 0.85 flat in all cells in my PE table and starts being commaded well before wide open pedal. Like I said before I had my stoich slightly too rich at 9.7 vs 9.9 which was making the car run about 3-4% richer than it was supposed to.

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