Please Do Not Run E-85 on Stock Injectors.

[18psi]

/\ that log just shows idle?
and doesn't show IDC either.
please post a log of pull to redline, thank you

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[Terminator2]

/\ that log just shows idle?
and doesn't show IDC either.
please post a log of pull to redline, thank you

HP Tuners who makes Lunds ngauge didn't have the ability to long injector duty cycle up until recently so all we had before about a month ago was injector pulse width to try to estimate injector duty cycle.

 

[MyFirst5.0]

is there an idc pid? i looked at some of my logs and i dont see it..and when scrolling thru the pids on the ngauge dont see it either

 

[mustang_guy]

20 bucks says you're vladi on nasioc.

/\ that log just shows idle?
and doesn't show IDC either.
please post a log of pull to redline, thank you

 

[Jn2]

is there an idc pid? i looked at some of my logs and i dont see it..and when scrolling thru the pids on the ngauge dont see it either

If you don't have the PID just make sure you log Injector Pulse Width.

This site explained how you can calculate injector duty cycle from RPM and IPW. It even has a field for you to enter it on.

http://www.stealth316.com/2-calc-idc.htm

 

[Terminator2]

Neither have you. Posting an HPtuners log of an inferred value is not exactly empirical evidence. The same bologna went on in Focus ST tuning world where we were stuck at 300whp on the stock hardware and eventually extra fueling was figured out by modifying some parameters.

As you mentioned you are rather new to tuning, I would advise you to talk with someone at Lund and see if they can offer insight. Lund calibrates hundreds of cars where you maybe tune your own and don't know all the tricks that that the ECM is capable of.

Good to see you are taking the self-tuning approach. I did it for many years but I just don't have the time anymore.

Been tuning for 9 years actually mostly GDI turbo cars similar to the ecoboost cars and those are more complex. There are no tuning tricks for a mechanical limitation (fuel mass flow of the injectors) you cannot change fuel rail pressure via tuning on these or any port injected car, you can command it slightly leaner at wide open throttle which will lower IDC some but that's a poor solution which will end up either sacrificing either power or safety.

I know exactly how to add a bit more fuel on direct injected cars you advance injection timing but not so far as it will misfire (open valve injection) and you raise desired rail pressure as rpms rise and injection times decrease to help the injectors flow more. I had one completely stock 2.0 LNF turbo cobalt with a little EFR 6758 make 450 whp and 400 Wtrq on 93 with only tuning no fueling upgrades of any kind.

 

[Jn2]

I have been running E85 in my car for 45k miles with no issues, below link is my datalog I did for lund with the e85 race tune. I also have flex fuel tune runs.

http://www.filedropper.com/log0005

Not a fan of CSV logs, but I imported it to HPT to make a bit easier to read.

It looks like you were running .85λ through out the pull, give or take a point or two here and there, which is normal.

I also notice you never really exceeded 43lbs/min, which is stock air flow numbers. Seeing as how your fuel trims were +/-1% we can say your MAF is pretty spot on.

In comparison, Term is seeing 47lbs/min with simular fuel trims. He is running a PMAS intake vs your JLT, but I don't know if that would account for the additional 4lbs of air he is seeing. How close to sea level are you? if you are high elavation where fuel demand is less than that would explain why the stock fuel system can support e85, there isn't as much fuel needed than in the lower elevation areas.

/\ that log just shows idle?
and doesn't show IDC either.
please post a log of pull to redline, thank you

It shows 2 WOT pulls, just takes forever to get to them, think they were around row #5000. I just imported it to HPT and the used the RPM graph to find his WOT pulls. Looks like he did a 3rd and half of 4th pull twice.

 

[Terminator2]

Not a fan of CSV logs, but I imported it to HPT to make a bit easier to read.

It looks like you were running .85λ through out the pull, give or take a point or two here and there, which is normal.

I also notice you never really exceeded 43lbs/min, which is stock air flow numbers. Seeing as how your fuel trims were +/-1% we can say your MAF is pretty spot on.

In comparison, Term is seeing 47lbs/min with simular fuel trims. He is running a PMAS intake vs your JLT, but I don't know if that would account for the additional 4lbs of air he is seeing. How close to sea level are you? if you are high elavation where fuel demand is less than that would explain why the stock fuel system can support e85, there isn't as much fuel needed than in the lower elevation areas.



It shows 2 WOT pulls, just takes forever to get to them, think they were around row #5000. I just imported it to HPT and the used the RPM graph to find his WOT pulls. Looks like he did a 3rd and half of 4th pull twice.

Was he logging IPW?

 

[Jn2]

Was he logging IPW?

No, download his file and then open it in HPT scanner, it will load it up for you. Only the channels will work though, the graph and histograms won't.

 

[stoli]

No, download his file and then open it in HPT scanner, it will load it up for you. Only the channels will work though, the graph and histograms won't.

You're welcome to peruse this log. It's a long one from a couple laps at a track on the Lund FF tune.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3gGKWomxaKfZ1FIWXBMQll4eDg/view?usp=sharing

 

[markmurfie]

I disagree with your MAF readings not because of your fuel trims, but because of how off your commanded vs actual lambda values are. 44lb/min sounds a lot more likely for the mods than 47lb/min. If the times ten rule hold true for a rough estimate that would mean you are around 470hp on a stock intake manifold. What does your car dyno?

 

[Terminator2]

I disagree with your MAF readings not because of your fuel trims, but because of how off your commanded vs actual lambda values are. 44lb/min sounds a lot more likely for the mods than 47lb/min. If the times ten rule hold true for a rough estimate that would mean you are around 470hp on a stock intake manifold. What does your car dyno?

MAF is within 2% I had my stoich set about 3-4% too rich so my total trims were off 3-5% initially. Still not much and I have a log on 93 showing 47 with -2 total fuel trim which is closer to zero than when I had the stock airbox.
Car will easily make 440-450 whp as it sits I can guarantee that. Stock MAF was around 42-42.5 and I've seen guys with E-85 tune only make close to 420 whp which is about 470 crank. I saw 44-44.5 when I did headers and no cats and 46-47 currently with Pmas intake.

 

[Agent_S550]

I am curious to see if any of the people running these tunes can post a datalog of their car during a WOT pull on e85.

The thing about e85 is it has a high octane rating, usually 104+. This means it has a very high resistance to knock(pre-ignition). So there is a chance that even a car who has ran out of fuel and has started to go lean could avoid failure bc of the high octane of the fuel.

For example, say you command a .86λ at WOT and around 6800rpm you hit 100% IDC, well the car would then start to go lean, it is still supplying fuel, it just is not enough to keep up with the amount of air coming in. This would cause a consistent linear increase in lambda. If you shift around 7000-7200 you might not be on it long enough to cause any damage since you have to shift within a split second of hitting 6800rpm.

I think this is the best explanation I've seen so far. I have to agree with it.

 

[Todd15Fastback]

Not a fan of CSV logs, but I imported it to HPT to make a bit easier to read.

It looks like you were running .85λ through out the pull, give or take a point or two here and there, which is normal.

I also notice you never really exceeded 43lbs/min, which is stock air flow numbers. Seeing as how your fuel trims were +/-1% we can say your MAF is pretty spot on.

In comparison, Term is seeing 47lbs/min with simular fuel trims. He is running a PMAS intake vs your JLT, but I don't know if that would account for the additional 4lbs of air he is seeing. How close to sea level are you? if you are high elavation where fuel demand is less than that would explain why the stock fuel system can support e85, there isn't as much fuel needed than in the lower elevation areas.

Interesting point about elevation.

What would be considered high elevation? I live in the Atlanta area with an elevation of 1100'.

 

[Chameleon]

[MENTION=23439]Terminator2[/MENTION] Good info!

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