PremiumT
Guest
That's not really the point of the motor now is it?
What do you consider 'big power' anyhow?
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What do you consider 'big power' anyhow?
JonnyMustang
Mustang Enthusiast
That's why I'm thinking catback and tune and call it a day.
JonnyMustang
Mustang Enthusiast
Most EB customers will be more concerned with handling and torque curve, not "big power".
ThunderHorse
Well-Known Member
Not the greatest of news. I was hoping this turbo 4 would have big tuning potential
All-Or-Nothing
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It may not be the point of the engine but for those that "Do" want to get big gains it will be very difficult. It will be hard to even get to GT power levels.
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UOP Shadow
Well-Known Member
So... new higher flowing heads, high volume headers / exhaust, pipe it how you want it...
You're only limited by how far you want to go into this engine.
You're only limited by how far you want to go into this engine.
Ericc B
Well-Known Member
A translation here:
http://translate.google.nl/translat...rd-almussafes-motor-mustang-201312051549.html
I think what it says is that just the 2.3EB engines will be produced in Spain. I would expect them to be shipped to the US for installation in Flat Rock. There will be no production of actual Mustangs in Spain.
Why do you say that for? Check out what's available for VWs GTI, Audi, BMW and Mini Coopers: power level increases of 10-20% are available on just a ECU change. Then there are the exhaust improvements for cat backs available. That's just the tip of the iceberg. My guess is that at least 75 hp and torque should not be all that hard to obtain. Couple that with 2-300 lbs less weight than the V8, could be interesting. I'm not saying that the 4 banger will beat the V8 in a drag race but look out in the curves and track. I love it, so etching very interesting could be made available to us. Just quit thinking Musclecar American and think European roadcar. Just my own thoughts, of course.
If I could get the 2.3t at 400 at the wheels I will be happy with that. Thats plenty for me. And dont just say well just buy a 5.0 because I believe thats to easy. I want to do my own mods to improve on my car .
Oldman
Member
370 HP for a 4 banger is big power. Don't pay attention to all the magazines with the 600 HP EVO, that engine can't be driven on the street. Turbos and that is all of them have a surge line, this is where air oscillates in and out of the compressor, the air is superheated and will melt the impeller into a tootsie roll, perfect for eating, but not for engine longevity and boost. I have driven a streetable B18C with large turbo putting out anywhere from 350 to 400 WHP, with not 100% absolute care I could toast the turbo and / or engine in a matter of seconds. The engine could NEVER and should NEVER see any boost unless it is at WOT and at high RPM. Once again all turbos have a surge line and the bigger the turbo the more flow and boost it needs to see to keep the blade from roasting off. :shocked: If the GF drove the car the turbo would be toast before she got to the nail shop.
Hence there are NO OEM turbo application with large turbo and small engine as Joe Average would just toast the compressor by boosting the engine at low RPM, high gear loads. There is a " ported shroud" technology that gets around low flow low boost surge.
Here is a handy 400 WHP or 460 engine HP turbo calculator:
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/turbocharger
You get a GT4202 (too big I know but that is Garrett's calculator) which is about twice as big as the Turbo on the EB.
Heck you can just get to 1 bar of boost and 300 HP on the initial surge line. So basically it could only be driven at near max RPM and at WOT or the turbo would melt... just like I said.
The popular GT2876R (bigger than the disco potato) is already down hill at 460 HP, and that can't see boost under 100 HP and 1 bar under 200 HP. How high up in the rev range is that for a 2.3 liter?? Dunno but high.
Disco P to almost 350 HP (310 HP for best boost islands) : http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/ntnsracing_2266_296331760
I can research the OEM 2.3 EB turbo but I highly doubt it is even as good as the Disco P, in terms of flow.
So no, despite what magazines say you ain't seen a "street driven" 460 HP anything at 2.0 to 2.3 liters. At least by mere mortals. Light car like a hollowed out Civic, no A/C or anything else that might lug the engine, crazy driver, super steep gears like 4.64, and a wad of cash... maybe. So clearly 600 HP EVO are like Unicorns and Rainbows. You see them or dream of them but can't touch one or ride one.
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Oldman
Member
Then you never worked with large turbos and 10,000 RPM B18C engines that were "street driven", what is the rev range of the 2V 2.3 like 6500 to 7000 RPM?.... or turbo diesel engines, where it is true the blade in general does not "roast off", the shaft twist like a candy cane, and the blade bangs around on the trust bearing and ablates off against the housing kinda of like the Greek deli where the cut the lamb off the skewer.... or even more familiar barks like a dog as the blade goes in reverse... LOLNever seen a compressor blade Roasted off but I have seen a crazy post or two on the internet
Surge is well known and any 4 banger does not have the breathing on the bottom end to support a turbo pushing big HP numbers and be street driven. I've listed the turbos from the site, please find me a flow map for 400 engine wheel HP, 460 engine HP at around say 2.5 bar, that does not also have a surge line around 100 HP (10 lb / minute) and 1.5 bar (7.6 PSI)? No or damaging boost to 100 HP... hum sounds like a real easy to drive "street" engine. 460 HP ain't exacally crazy HP either...
Read the last paragraph on turbo surge:
http://books.google.com/books?id=hhiVyuHS76UC&pg=PA41&lpg=PA41&dq=superheated+air+turbo+surge&source=bl&ots=MTOSrVyBJX&sig=aEU_D-QWp9OWrKDPNjB6LRs19uU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8ounUouGMNS0kQeLjYCACA&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=superheated%20air%20turbo%20surge&f=false
Grimace427
Well-Known Member
Does this apply to variable geometry/variable vane turbos as well? My experience is with Mercedes and we just came out with the CLA45 which has a 355hp/332tq 2.0 Turbo, 26psi max boost. Not exactly 400+ but with mods I expect people to be pushing the envelope. My coworker just picked his up so I will see first hand.
Oldman
Member
On the VNT15, VNT17 diesel turbos this was common to very common, but these turbos were crazy over boosted. Common failure mode was the candy cane shaft and then the wheel would just unscrew from the shaft. The compressor wheels that did not suffer shaft failure would show melting discoloration along the tip of the wheel. On a VNT the boost spike is near instant and the VNT fins have no hope of opening fast enough. Typical dyno numbers were 180 WHP and 330ft -lbs from 1.9 liters Diesel.
I've very excited that an OEM has a 355 hp 2.0 out. Maybe the VNT is the "magic", I'm thinking more of the computer controls preventing surge via parameters in the engine and trans.
The VNT 25 used on the Shelby Dodge AFAIK never had a surge problem, so maybe on a gasser it is completely cool. I'll admin right now engine breathing through the manipulation of the cam phasing, and other controls of the combustion process can help prevent turbo surge. I've also mentioned the new "ported shroud" technology that helps on surge both should let bigger turbos in terms of flow be installed into smaller engines. Not to mention things like computer controlled highstall torque converters and the like that allow the engine to spin up faster. Point is 400 whp or 460 engine HP are still "big power" numbers for the steet.
The VNT tech was not used after that AFAIK because gasser exhaust was not as "slippery" as diesel exhaust, hotter, and more corrosive and the vanes on the VNT would freeze.
Hey just saw this on UTube:
[ame]
and they even mention me how nice.
Here is the speculation on a 350 HP EB:
http://www.motortrend.com/future/future_vehicles/1104_new_ford_focus_rs_will_it_happen/
Of course I don't have ANY experience with an EB, but I do have a bunch on the Volvo 2.5 5 banger used on the last RS upto 350 HP. That used a k16. Note in the introduce yourself I note that I had a 2.5 T Volvo manual 6 speed... that I hot rodded to max. Even with a 2.5 liter and 1 more cylinder worth of breather, the K16 runs out of breath at 5500 RPM and is really border line in terms of flow to 350+HP as it is the same turbo on the 305 HP AFAIK.
Oldman
Member
Here Cobb has a EFR 6758 turbo on their RACE EB at 400 WHP.
http://www.full-race.com/store/turbos/borgwarner-efr/borgwarner-efr-6758-turbo.html
The map is in kg/sec so out of my Merican league. Looking at the surge line I would estimate that engine needs about 150 HP of flow or .12 kg /sec to see ANY boost. Real streetable. Must be crazy on the track. But not what can be driven in traffic.
Check the E85 Scubbie, with this turbo it does not go over 300 ft -lbs till 4000 RPM, and peak torque is 5250 to 5500 RPM. That is a LONG time to wait for boost on a street car. Compare that to the stock EB where we should be expecting close to 300 lbs from 2000 to 4500 RPM, heck the stock EB turbo is done before this turbo is even in the grove.
I will say this for a G25 turbo this turbo is simply completely amazing on its two center boost islands as well its peak 52 lbs / min 500+ HP rating (based on the map), of course the turbo should never be driven that high and this turbo is rated at 450 HP max (sub 400 whp).
So can this turbo be driven on the street? Dunno, I'm sure people do, but as stated, deep pockets and drive like you stole it, light car, steep gears anything is possible. Maybe I'm getting old, as 80 HP gain on the top 10% of the power range is not worth 50% less torque over 100% of the normal driving range.
Gotta luv this turbo though... if I were in my 20s I guess I'd be thinking about this. LOL
http://www.full-race.com/store/turbos/borgwarner-efr/borgwarner-efr-6758-turbo.html
The map is in kg/sec so out of my Merican league. Looking at the surge line I would estimate that engine needs about 150 HP of flow or .12 kg /sec to see ANY boost. Real streetable. Must be crazy on the track. But not what can be driven in traffic.
Check the E85 Scubbie, with this turbo it does not go over 300 ft -lbs till 4000 RPM, and peak torque is 5250 to 5500 RPM. That is a LONG time to wait for boost on a street car. Compare that to the stock EB where we should be expecting close to 300 lbs from 2000 to 4500 RPM, heck the stock EB turbo is done before this turbo is even in the grove.
I will say this for a G25 turbo this turbo is simply completely amazing on its two center boost islands as well its peak 52 lbs / min 500+ HP rating (based on the map), of course the turbo should never be driven that high and this turbo is rated at 450 HP max (sub 400 whp).
So can this turbo be driven on the street? Dunno, I'm sure people do, but as stated, deep pockets and drive like you stole it, light car, steep gears anything is possible. Maybe I'm getting old, as 80 HP gain on the top 10% of the power range is not worth 50% less torque over 100% of the normal driving range.
Gotta luv this turbo though... if I were in my 20s I guess I'd be thinking about this. LOL
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