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Oldman

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yawn.. if there is such a turbo then post a map. It is basic automotive physics, large turbos have high choke lines, a turbo will die and many times take the engine with it if driven into the choke line. I've seen hundreds of turbo maps, there are none that can move the air your guys are claiming that don't also have choke lines in the 10 to 15 lbs / min range which is about 100 to 150 HP worth of air. Sorry but 4 banger "street" turbo you are claiming can't ever see boost under 100 to 150 HP, yep daily drivers.. NOT.

I've already posted the Cobb turbo's map and it is a great turbo, but it is a race turbo, maybe street driven, does not reach peak torque to 5200 RPM, and that I would assume with no exhaust / backpressure at all, give all that it is rated by Cobb at 400 WHP. Now we are at the 500 to 800 streetable HP.:headbonk: Really, well lets see the turbo map....

http://turbochargerspecs.blogspot.com/2011/02/garrett-gt22-gt2259-52-trim-280-hp.html

The above is a GT22 map, yep about 5 lbs /min of 50 HP is its choke line and it goes to about 70 HP at 1 bar of boost, perfect for a street car / daily driver.
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Oldman

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Exactly. 500-800HP steetable combinations are not uncommon.
Please do not confuse "streetable" as yep I've seen blown hemi engines with drag chutes on the street to a "street car". A street car means that when the GF's battery dies, she could actually drive the car to work without blowing the motor up. "streetable" is a meaning less term.

Here is the popular 500 HP turbo on a 2.4 liter engine, I've also posted the turbo map. Note first the peak torque is reached at 4750, that is a LONG time to wait on a street car. The choke line for the turbo is about 1/2 bar 7.3 PSI at 110 HP, check the graph for a 2.4 liter it does not move 10 lbs or air till 3600 RPM, basically any boost should never hit this engine below that 3500 RPM and accelerating not lugging and for 1 bar of boost, not much in this day and age the engine, should be flowing about 17 lbs of air and that cant happen till like 4600 RPM. Any combination of boost or flow that does not make the above puts this turbo in serious surge range. There ya go, the operating parameters of this turbo on a 2.4 liter engine: don't see any boost below WOT AND 3600 RPM, and best be pulling at WOT above 4600 RPM for even 1 bar of boost... like I said light car, steep gears, deep pockets, drive it like you stole it and that is ALL the time. Never ever see boost below 3600 RPM and WOT, Sounds more like work to me. How pitiful would a 3400 lbs car be if you could never get boost below 3500 RPM and WOT on a 4 banger??? Yep but it sure is fast.

http://www.theboombopshop.com/Garrett-Turbo-GT3076R-p/garrett-gt3076r.htm
http://www.forcedinductionsonline.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=1164
 

Oldman

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Not really. Kids with their true 'daily driven' grocery-getters that they track on the weekends with 400hp with bolt-ons and not huge budgets. Their are endless threads on evolutionm.net
my bet is the grocery-getter is the GF's SUV.... even bone stock EVO that are driven hard are known to be problematic. Also most "kids" I know are racing beat Mustangs with 5.0s in them and doing quite well. Sorry but the vast majority of EVO owners I see at the track are in their mid 30s and up with decent middle manager jobs, I think of them as "kids" but not in the same vane as you, the EVO is an expensive car to fool with and prone to drivetrain breakage as the power levels rise. I would admit the engine seems pretty happy at 400 HP

Here ATP 450 HP EVO kit for $2400, we know that this is just the tip of a huge iceberg on what is needed to use 450 HP on a 4WD EVO.

http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchan...&Product_Code=ATP-VEVO-004&Category_Code=VEVO

I would speculate there are three and a half kinds of people that will by the EB
1) light to no mods... want 30+ MPG like the torque and balance of the package. May have owned a turbo 2.3 or turbo Dodge 2.2 / 2.5 years ago. 85% of the buyers.
2) mods upto stock turbo limit say 350 HP, downpipe, intercooler, tune, cool air induction, probably do suspension and some racing. 10%
3) 3% mod the car, bigger turbo, fuel system, give up and buy a 5.0
3.5) 2% like to mod, they know they are the underdog, yep I'm sure these are the guys with "street cars" at, 500, 600 or even more HP and up. Most of these guys could easily afford the 5.0, but just don't like anything off the shelf, anybody can make a V8 fast but it takes a real man to make a 4 banger waste as much fuel as a V8.

Just pick the category and if you are in #3, save yourself a lot of grief...

I fit in between 2 and 3, there is always a point where to get more power it is just cubic bucks and dependability in like daily driver, your job depends on you getting to work type. For me I've always promise myself I won't hotrod at least one car, I always hotrod all my cars... So I should be careful and if I really want a 5.0 I should just get that...
 

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Aren't most modern turbo car's wastegates controlled via computer? Could they just be tuned to not allow full boost in during high load/low rpm situations?

Like say you have an engine that can only flow 10lb/min of air at 2k rpm in 6th gear WOT. The turbo can flow, say, 20lb/min in this situation and will surge. Could you not tune the computer to tell the wastegate to open up before it can flow 10lb/min so you never get any surge?
 

Josh Painter

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Aren't most modern turbo car's wastegates controlled via computer? Could they just be tuned to not allow full boost in during high load/low rpm situations?
Ford claims that the EB 2.3 delivers max torque from 1500 RPM and up. That solves a lot of problems.
 

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Stuntman

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Here is the popular 500 HP turbo on a 2.4 liter engine, I've also posted the turbo map. Note first the peak torque is reached at 4750, that is a LONG time to wait on a street car.
The link shows peak torque at ~4,500rpm giving the motor a 3,000 rpm useable powerband. Not too bad IMO.

The choke line for the turbo is about 1/2 bar 7.3 PSI at 110 HP, check the graph for a 2.4 liter it does not move 10 lbs or air till 3600 RPM, basically any boost should never hit this engine below that 3500 RPM and accelerating not lugging and for 1 bar of boost, not much in this day and age the engine, should be flowing about 17 lbs of air and that cant happen till like 4600 RPM. Any combination of boost or flow that does not make the above puts this turbo in serious surge range. There ya go, the operating parameters of this turbo on a 2.4 liter engine: don't see any boost below WOT AND 3600 RPM, and best be pulling at WOT above 4600 RPM for even 1 bar of boost... like I said light car, steep gears, deep pockets, drive it like you stole it and that is ALL the time. Never ever see boost below 3600 RPM and WOT, Sounds more like work to me. How pitiful would a 3400 lbs car be if you could never get boost below 3500 RPM and WOT on a 4 banger??? Yep but it sure is fast.

http://www.theboombopshop.com/Garrett-Turbo-GT3076R-p/garrett-gt3076r.htm
http://www.forcedinductionsonline.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=1164
If the turbo sizing to engine match is right, loading the motor/turbo below it's peak torque will not have a surging issue -especially if there's not enough exhaust flow at low RPM and high load in the first place. The GT30/76 on the SR20 would probably be fine. Ive driven a few daily driven 3.5L VQ35s with twin 28/71s and 30/71s that didn't have any surging problems.


I think the 2.3EB is going to be a great tuner platform for its stock power levels, RWD, and probable ease to work on (small motor in a large engine bay). I agree that it should be a serious contender in the BRZ/FRS/S2000/Civic SI/EVO/STI camp as a 'tuner' car and a track toy.

The unknown fuel system and integrated header will most likely be the biggest limitations and hurdles to overcome, but bolt-on intercoolers, exhaust, downpipes, tuning the ECU, etc... will probably be common. You will see people putting on slightly larger turbos (not saying GT40s) to improve the restriction of the stock turbo for increased higher RPM power at the cost of some very low RPM torque. This is an acceptable tradeoff as OEM turbos are often sized for the instant response and torque to make a small displacement motor act like a larger one (at the cost of becoming restrictive at higher RPM) rather than outright performance and higher RPM useability.

Ford claims that the EB 2.3 delivers max torque from 1500 RPM and up. That solves a lot of problems.
Should act more like a V6 response/torque wise, but will run out of steam and probably have significant torque losses at redline.
 

Oldman

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Aren't most modern turbo car's wastegates controlled via computer? Could they just be tuned to not allow full boost in during high load/low rpm situations?

Like say you have an engine that can only flow 10lb/min of air at 2k rpm in 6th gear WOT. The turbo can flow, say, 20lb/min in this situation and will surge. Could you not tune the computer to tell the wastegate to open up before it can flow 10lb/min so you never get any surge?
yep and it takes a huge amount of custom programing for it. But it still means you got a 3400 lbs car with an engine that can't take boost unless it is in the lowest gear possible, accelerating, at or near WOT at any normal RPM. Drive it like you stole it, it should work fine.

Also the wastegate only controls wheel speed, the wheel is in surge because the engine is not flowing enough, you would need a more precise diverter valve and you would be putting very hot air back into the intake track... Wastegates are in general used to stabilize boost and prevent penetration of the choke lines (right side of the graph). But yes you could wastegate the turbo at low flow and you would end up with a 4 banger 3400 lbs car with no boost during large parts of your dailydrive.

Of course I'm unfamiliar with the new VNT benz, I would bet they use a BOV or diverter, of course lots of programing of the transmission too.
 

Oldman

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The link shows peak torque at ~4,500rpm giving the motor a 3,000 rpm useable powerband. Not too bad IMO.
for racing, but on street the engine can't see any boost at all below say 2500 RPM steady state, this is highway RPM going up a incline... this is slower acceleration in gear without downshifting. AKA daily driving.

If the turbo sizing to engine match is right, loading the motor/turbo below it's peak torque will not have a surging issue -
Point is there is no turbo made that is not into massive self destructing surge that can also put out big HP numbers that is not into heavy surge at normal driving HP and RPM, look at the map, no boost allowed at ALL below 110 HP, really that is the ragged edge, for Joe average, it should be 120 HP or more.. what is that on a 2.3 EB 3/4 throttle and 2800 RPM??? lowest gear possible for the speed. It just is not able to be street driven, not consistently by Joe average, and that is what I said from the get go. I drove my 1.8 liter with large turbo for many years, but the GF would destroy the turbo just going for to work...

Let's do the extrapolation. 1.8 liters for 350 to 400 WHP would be equivalent to 420 to 520 WHP for a 2.3 liter. For it to work:
1) light car
2) steep gears mine had a 4.73 final drive with 15" rims
3) always uses the lowest gear possible if the engine is in boost.
4) NEVER, as in NEVER drive the torque, leave it in higher gear and let 3 to 5 psi of boost pull the car over the hill or mild acceleration events.
6) never let the GF or anybody else drive the car


Why because the turbo can be put into heavy surge in normal street driving.

I think the 2.3EB is going to be a great tuner platform for its stock power levels, RWD, and probable ease to work on (small motor in a large engine bay). I agree that it should be a serious contender in the BRZ/FRS/S2000/Civic SI/EVO/STI camp as a 'tuner' car and a track toy.
spot on.

The unknown fuel system and integrated header will most likely be the biggest limitations and hurdles to overcome, but bolt-on intercoolers, exhaust, downpipes, tuning the ECU, etc... will probably be common. You will see people putting on slightly larger turbos (not saying GT40s) to improve the restriction of the stock turbo for increased higher RPM power at the cost of some very low RPM torque. This is an acceptable tradeoff as OEM turbos are often sized for the instant response and torque to make a small displacement motor act like a larger one (at the cost of becoming restrictive at higher RPM) rather than outright performance and higher RPM useability.
Agree to a point, see my post above about percentages. There is a point, and that the race turbos will not make for a usable street cars. Be that 500 HP turbos or see other post above about the 800 HP "streetable" turbo.. Clearly at some point between 450 and 550 engine HP (my estimate), the turbo goes beyond a street drive, grocery getter. Depending on who is getting the groceries of course. But to pretend that all is well and good with huge turbos stuck onto a 4 banger is the belie the truth. They are not "turn-key" end user setups. They are race setups that some people drive on the street and they are NOT that pleasurable to drive...
 

Stuntman

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for racing, but on street the engine can't see any boost at all below say 2500 RPM steady state, this is highway RPM going up a incline... this is slower acceleration in gear without downshifting. AKA daily driving
While I don't disagree with what you are saying in terms of the extreme of an overly large turbo, I do think you're blowing the surging issue and low RPM use out of proportion just a bit... A GT30/76 on the KA24 is a decent more performance-oriented package that admittedly does sacrifice some very low end power. However, if you're at 2,500rpm with a steep incline or have to pass a car: You Downshift. -Just like an automatic transmission would or anyone who drives a low powered/low torque car (like an Miata, S2000, NSX, E46-E92 M3s, etc...) Coming from a Honda I think you would understand.

The above naturally aspirated examples do not get out of their own way at 2,500rpm and need to be revved out to accelerate at a decent rate. If you come from a high displacement background and like the response when you mat the throttle at such low RPM (and the car actually moves), then the 2.3EB or any small displacement car is not for you.

Point is there is no turbo made that is not into massive self destructing surge that can also put out big HP numbers that is not into heavy surge at normal driving HP and RPM, look at the map, no boost allowed at ALL below 110 HP, really that is the ragged edge, for Joe average, it should be 120 HP or more.. what is that on a 2.3 EB 3/4 throttle and 2800 RPM??? lowest gear possible for the speed. It just is not able to be street driven, not consistently by Joe average, and that is what I said from the get go. I drove my 1.8 liter with large turbo for many years, but the GF would destroy the turbo just going for to work...

Let's do the extrapolation. 1.8 liters for 350 to 400 WHP would be equivalent to 420 to 520 WHP for a 2.3 liter. For it to work:
1) light car
2) steep gears mine had a 4.73 final drive with 15" rims
3) always uses the lowest gear possible if the engine is in boost.
4) NEVER, as in NEVER drive the torque, leave it in higher gear and let 3 to 5 psi of boost pull the car over the hill or mild acceleration events.
6) never let the GF or anybody else drive the car

Why because the turbo can be put into heavy surge in normal street driving.
Again, a bit over-exaggerated with unnecessary criteria. The 30/76-KA24 setup won't surge to destruction under DD uses even when lugging it. And when you need to 'get up on the pipe' (as some 2-stroke motorcyclists could relate), you drop down a gear to a higher RPM to take advantage of the powerband. Going full throttle at low RPM will not destroy the turbo or blow your car up. It would just have about the same (maybe slightly more) power than stock. If that's not enough, then downshift.

Keep in mind the GT28 & GT30/71 equipped VQ35s that are daily driven (and I have driven) are essentially a 1.75L 3-cylinder spinning up a GT30/71 - quite a bit smaller than the 2.4L Nissan spinning the GT30/76. These cars do not surge out of control, or atall. They also don't move all that much at 2,500rpm but niether does the stock 350Z at that RPM. Once you get to 3,500-4,000, they spool up and put a smile on your face.


Since the Mazda 3/Mazdaspeed 3/Mazdaspeed 6 have a 2.3L, the following is fairly relevant:

Tri-Point Engineering (Factory Mazda race team) Specifies a GT30/71 and GT30/76 on their 2.3L Mazdaspeed 3&6 kits (500+ crank HP) while they use a GT28/71 on the base Mazda 3 daily driven street car setups:

TriPoint Turbo Sizing: http://tripointengineering.com/index.php?cPath=572

Mazda 3 (240whp = +100whp over stock): http://tripointengineering.com/information.php?info_id=1

Sport Compact Car's article on the turbo kit: http://www.modified.com/tech/sccp_0809_mazdaspeed3/bridgestone_re050a_tires.html

*Tri-Point does offer a very large GT3582R turbo which would make 550-600 crank HP on a modified engine -as they say. They claim a 7-800rpm slower spool than the spec'd GT30/71R. Even for these examples, if a factory race team that works with the OEM Manufacturer's R&D specs a street turbo for the mass public that does not surge out of control, I don't think these sizes would be an issue for the 2.3EB (assuming no fuel or manifold issues).

Agree to a point, see my post above about percentages. There is a point, and that the race turbos will not make for a usable street cars. Be that 500 HP turbos or see other post above about the 800 HP "streetable" turbo.. Clearly at some point between 450 and 550 engine HP (my estimate), the turbo goes beyond a street drive, grocery getter. Depending on who is getting the groceries of course. But to pretend that all is well and good with huge turbos stuck onto a 4 banger is the belie the truth. They are not "turn-key" end user setups. They are race setups that some people drive on the street and they are NOT that pleasurable to drive...
800HP turbo EB's are unrealistic for anyone not building it to be an all out race motor. I think the fuel and manifold issues will be the main limitations but assuming those hurdles are overcome, there should be no reason the 2.3EB couldn't match the above Mazdaspeed 3 motor's turbo sizing and output without surging out of control. And keep in mind that GT30 is much larger than the oem GT22.

For bolt-on parts, you'll probably see mid-maybe high(er) 300's at the crank as a very common and popular modifications. You'll then see fewer people, but there will be those who bolt on a little larger turbo with less high RPM restiction and more power (like a GT30/71-76) and make mid-400s to around 500hp assuming no issues mentioned previously on a perfectly streetable setup that does not blow up when you are full throttle at low RPM.

Will a properly-sized (GT3076) turbo have as much response at super low RPM as the stock GT22? Of course not, but it won't blow up when you daily drive it and it'll go a heck of a lot faster in the mid-range to high RPM.


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VIN666

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@Oldman.
You need to look up some SRT4s my friend.
Mine in the 400s to the wheels with full boost at about 2800 rpm, holding it to almost 6500.
Yes, it is perfectly streetable engine wise, traction however is not. LOL
 

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@Oldman.
You need to look up some SRT4s my friend.
Mine in the 400s to the wheels with full boost at about 2800 rpm, holding it to almost 6500.
Yes, it is perfectly streetable engine wise, traction however is not. LOL
I'll second this.
Original SRT-4 owner here, close to 400 at the wheels with a modified Stage 3 kit. Yes, a daily driver, for the last 10 years.
Very interested in seeing what this EB 2.3 can do in the hands of a tuner.
 

VIN666

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I'll second this.
Original SRT-4 owner here, close to 400 at the wheels with a modified Stage 3 kit. Yes, a daily driver, for the last 10 years.
Very interested in seeing what this EB 2.3 can do in the hands of a tuner.
:clap2:

Delta46 DBB here.
Car is 2700 lbs, so it's quite entertaining.
Got N2MB boost-by-gear, so it's usable.
 

Oldman

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http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2284690

This is with the popular GT2867R turbo over-laid with RPM flow lines for 2.0 and 2.5 liters, even this small sub 400 WHP turbo is far into the surge range 1000 and 2000 RPM, even 2500 it is iffy, this is a small turbo. Probably, just a guess the most popular turbo of choice for the EB Mustang.

On the downshift, just my point, you can NEVER drive the boost, the car must constantly be downshifted. Sorry most people don't downshift from high gear whenever any bid of power is needed, hence the got a turbo car to begin with, to drive the torque over a wide band. Not a problem for me, as pointed out, I've driven big turbos on the street, it will be an issue for 6G Mustang as it really needs the turbo to move around 3400 lbs car. Trading drivable torque for 6000 + RPM HP bragging rights is just not where it is at on a car, a daily driven car.

Um a 2700 lbs SRT4, ain't a 3400 lbs Mustang and I would dare say that the average SRT4 owner is not a 2.3 EB owner. Still it would be nice to see a dyno pull of 400 WHP and what turbo you are running.


found a hub dyno (about 10% driveloss) on a 2.5 liter with the popular turbo chargers:
http://blog.perrinperformance.com/w.../10/dyno_turbo_08wrx3071rtuned16.7psivs18.jpg

Yep things don't start to sing till 3800 RPM, then of course things go crazy for 400 WHP..
 

VIN666

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AGP delta 46 DBB.

Sorry, no dyno plot on hand.

And no, I don't boost it at 2k rpm... Jeez, who would do that?
If you want low end grunt, get a chevy...
 

Oldman

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AGP delta 46 DBB.

Sorry, no dyno plot on hand.

And no, I don't boost it at 2k rpm... Jeez, who would do that?
Anybody with a 3600 lbs (car driver and gas) Mustang with a 2.3 four banger under the hood especially with stock gears and / or auto. That actually wants to drive and enjoy a car.


you want low end grunt, get a chevy...
LOL, I know, I got this for grunt, comes on nice and strong before 2000 RPM...



AFAIK the TDO wheel on the stage III was rated at 39 lbs / minute or 600 CFM, similar wheel here:
http://www.stealth316.com/images/td05hr-16g6-cfm.gif
That is about 340 WHP on a dynojet SAE
unless it is a 20g here
http://www.stealth316.com/images/td06-20g-raw.gif
which flows more air but makes less boost. Overall a nice map and some low surge lines but this wheel is not efficient at higher boost levels. above 2.3 bar. This is a 420 peak HP (380 wheel SAE dynojet) turbo or there abouts. Still the GT wheels with better top end boost are the ones that will find their way onto EBs.
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