Nitrogen in tires

[Tomster]

I agree 100% with this statement. However, I haven't seen the claim you mentioned. What I do see is the claim that inflation pressure will vary by less with N2 only. THIS claim is true. However, what they don't say is that the difference in pressure change between N2 and air is so small that it will make no appreciable difference in performance of the car.

I agree that every single sales claim I've read about N2 vs. air is misleading.

I completely agree with that. :cheers:

I think the difference may be that even a compressor with a dryer attached still isn't going to get as much water out of the air compared to the moisture content of dry nitrogen.

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[Norm Peterson]

Just curious, was that in one of the videos or links somewhere? I reread all the posts and cant find where someone claimed that.

FWIW, I do agree with you that the difference is water in the non dried gas.

It came from the following link, about 2/3 of the way down.

https://www.nascar.com/en_us/monste...ology-hub/nascar-mobil1-technology-tires.html


Norm

 

[tom_sprecher]

Dude a pancake compressor is 40 bucks at harbor freight, very portable and air is free. A regulator alone is about 40 bucks not to include the cost of the cylinder. How large is the cylinder that it has lasted 7 years? Large tanks are expensive not to mention the sheer size and weight of them. Not very portable.

Dude there is no such thing as a $40 HF pancake compressor. The cheapest they have is $60, puts out a max of 1cfm and will not run an air gun requiring 4.2cfm. You would need something more like this which takes up too much precious floor space in a trailer.

https://www.harborfreight.com/8-gal-2-HP-125-PSI-Oil-Lube-Air-Compressor-68740.html

The cylinder is a 44 which is maybe 5' tall, 10" in diameter and weighs over 100lbs easily. It is chained out of the way to the wall of the enclosed trailer. The reg and tank I bought for $60 and it was half filled. I have since filled it again and is probably half filled now.

Plus using nitrogen to run your air gun is bad-ass. ;)

 

[Zitrosounds]

Dude there is no such thing as a $40 HF pancake compressor. The cheapest they have is $60, puts out a max of 1cfm and will not run an air gun requiring 4.2cfm. You would need something more like this which takes up too much precious floor space in a trailer.

https://www.harborfreight.com/8-gal-2-HP-125-PSI-Oil-Lube-Air-Compressor-68740.html

The cylinder is a 44 which is maybe 5' tall, 10" in diameter and weighs over 100lbs easily. It is chained out of the way to the wall of the enclosed trailer. The reg and tank I bought for $60 and it was half filled. I have since filled it again and is probably half filled now.

Plus using nitrogen to run your air gun is bad-ass. ;)

OK! You got me there but if I buy during a sale event and use a SUPER COUPON!!!! ; )
Running N for pneumatic tools is bad ass!
I'll stick to my battery powered impact wrench and lil compressor for track days. Much less to lug around.

 

[oldbmwfan]

The Fifth Gear video highlights the biggest issue - purging. DRY nitrogen (or truly DRY air) is better; the presence of water vapor is a bigger variable than the oxygen. However, unless you have two valve stems and can actually purge air from the tire while filling with nitrogen, you are not going to end up with a dry gas in your tire ... so it's a waste of time.

Racers use nitrogen because a big bottle at the track is a faster way to fill and you can get an enduro's worth of tire fills out of one bottle, vs. having to run a compressor and/or refill a compressed air tank multiple times. It's a convenience measure more than a performance one.

For reference, I'm a chemist by training and I've run and crewed in multiple 12- and 24-hour races.

Edit: oops, didn't realize this was a 4-page thread and wrote this after reading p1. JAJ and others hit the nail on the head.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I think the difference may be that even a compressor with a dryer attached still isn't going to get as much water out of the air compared to the moisture content of dry nitrogen.

Even reducing the moisture content is going to be a diminishing-returns game past some point.


Norm

 

[Eritas]

Aren't tires mounted with nitrogen mostly purged? If mounted with nitrogen and filled with nitrogen later on, I'd say most of the ambient moisture would be out of the tire, so you don't need two valvestems to purge the system.

If it we're purely convenience of having a large tank, and if the "dry" aspect wasn't an advantage, you'd think these teams would save a lot of money by using their own air compressor to re fill the tanks, since nitrogen isn't that cheap. I think you're understating the importance of it being dry.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I don't see how you can guarantee mounting with N2 will purge even most of the moisture out. Not without being rather wasteful of the N2 by keeping it flowing from the time you've got the first bead into the drop center until both beads are fully seated.

Being 'dry' is far more important to race teams at the NASCAR level and up where sponsorships and contingencies are at stake than it ever will be for people running HPDE up to maybe time trials and club racing. The advantages are always there, but the need for them is not.


Norm

 

[Eritas]

What's the volume of "wet" ambient air in a deflated tire that was just mounted? What's the volume of air when setting the bead at 60-80psi? Now what's the % of that original wet air out of the now 60-80psi that's in the tire before deflating the tire to typical pressures?

Mounting with nitrogen gets the majority of moisture out of the tire.

 

[Zombo]

If you are really set on using N2, with the bead set, you can pull a vacuum (without unsetting the bead) to remove most of what is there, then back-fill with N2.

There is a tool that will allow you to remove the schrader valve core (core removal tool) with the system isolated from the atmosphere. HVAC folks use it all the time. I bought one and used it when installing a mini-split A/C-Heatpump at my house (to pull the vacuum on the system to check for leaks before charging it). I would image it would work on a rim valve?

 

[Hack]

I completely agree with that. :cheers:

I think the difference may be that even a compressor with a dryer attached still isn't going to get as much water out of the air compared to the moisture content of dry nitrogen.

I would recommend to you and to anyone else considering spending money for N2 to do the math on how much moisture could be in the tire worst case versus zero moisture and what you think the results could be.

Like all the sales statements for N2, the idea that reducing moisture is helpful in some way is true, but the amount that it helps you is so small that you will never, ever notice it.

 

[Eritas]

I would recommend to you and to anyone else considering spending money for N2 to do the math on how much moisture could be in the tire worst case versus zero moisture and what you think the results could be.

Like all the sales statements for N2, the idea that reducing moisture is helpful in some way is true, but the amount that it helps you is so small that you will never, ever notice it.

Maybe if you live in AZ or if you tend to top off your tires with gas station air pumps which pretty much fill your tires with water.

 

[Norm Peterson]

What's the volume of "wet" ambient air in a deflated tire that was just mounted? What's the volume of air when setting the bead at 60-80psi? Now what's the % of that original wet air out of the now 60-80psi that's in the tire before deflating the tire to typical pressures?

Mounting with nitrogen gets the majority of moisture out of the tire.

That you shouldn't need much over 40 psi aside, once you've added about 3 atmospheres of N2 (44 psi) to the one atmosphere of moist air if you only inflate with N2, the moisture content by weight would be no more than a quarter of what it would be if you filled the tire with moist "regular air", and most probably less than that. See diminishing returns.

It's no big deal to have to bleed off 3 or 4 psi between sessions. Zero expense, no worries if you need to add some air and the N2 refill isn't handy (what individual is going to invest in their own personal N2 generator? I know I wouldn't).


Norm

 

[snaproll]

:lol: Same guy who sets a bead with N2 probably slathers 4 oz of bead lube aka water in the tire

 

[Eritas]

That you shouldn't need much over 40 psi aside, once you've added about 3 atmospheres of N2 (44 psi) to the one atmosphere of moist air if you only inflate with N2, the moisture content by weight would be no more than a quarter of what it would be if you filled the tire with moist "regular air", and most probably less than that. See diminishing returns.

It's no big deal to have to bleed off 3 or 4 psi between sessions. Zero expense, no worries if you need to add some air and the N2 refill isn't handy (what individual is going to invest in their own personal N2 generator? I know I wouldn't).


Norm

I'll hire you if you can get a tire to seat with only 40psi with or without a ton of lube.

If you're only needing to bleed 3-4psi from a cold tire to hot, then sure Nitrogen will have an insignificant benefit. It also means you're REALLY slow :lol:

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