Nice Dark Horse Mach 1 comparison

[jsullboy]

Throttle House did a good Dark Horse and Mach 1 comparison.
check it out:
Video

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[2021 Mach 1]

Throttle House did a good Dark Horse and Mach 1 comparison.
check it out:
Video

They really need to put all the cars on the same tires.

 

[jsullboy]

Good point Michelin sponsors the video so it would seem they have the ability to do it.

 

[2021 Mach 1]

Good point Michelin sponsors the video so it would seem they have the ability to do it.

And it's not just them that do it when they test cars. Most testers do the same thing. But mixing street tires vs Cup 2's and Trofeo R's is almost pointless.

 

[Mikepol2]

The Mach in the video was obviously modified for track use, would love to know what had been done to it.

 

[Hack]

I watched that video. I was mostly annoyed that they used the fastest straight line Camaro to compare to the DH in a straight line, but then said nothing about that same Camaro's time around the track. That was the Camaro they should have compared to the PP1 Mustang they reviewed recently rather than the SS 1LE. The SS 1LE should have been compared to the DH.

I feel like TH is anti-Ford. It's hard to blame them when Ford won't give them cars to review, but if their reviews are biased, then it makes them entertainment only with a lot less useful content than they could have.

The DH was faster than the ZL1 1LE around their track! That's incredible to me.

Yes the Trofeo R tires on the DH must be pretty sticky. And the car is set up to take advantage of them. I was impressed that the ride seemed to be fine as well (not ultra stiff suspension like the ZL1 1LE has). But the review didn't really talk about the general driveability of the car very much.

And it's not just them that do it when they test cars. Most testers do the same thing. But mixing street tires vs Cup 2's and Trofeo R's is almost pointless.

It's just comparing two cars in how they are delivered from the factory. Cup 2s and Trofeo Rs ARE street tires. Given there are a lot of people who won't use them on the street due to the high cost and short life, but it certainly can be done with no legal repercussions.

Once you start customizing, where do you stop? I'd love to see a comparison of my car with the Power Pack 3, Ford Performance track handling pack and caster camber plates plus a performance wheel alignment vs. a stock vehicle. I'm sure a lot of people with power adders on their Mustangs would like to see some comparisons online.

It's too bad the DH didn't have the optional carbon fiber wheels. I would have loved to see some information about those and how much they improve the car.

 

[MACHtobers Very Own]

I just wanna know where the Mach 1 got its fog lights from!!!! Sheesh! still a stupidly missed opportunity from the aftermarket

 

[MAGS1]

I have to disagree, I don’t think they are Ford haters. I do think Thomas is a bit salty about Ford not giving them a Mach to do a lap time with, but he had plenty of good things to say about the DH. And he absolutely loves the GT350/R. They’re not the biggest fans of the regular GT PP1 but to be fair the GT PP1 is not built for the track like a Mach, DH or even a PP2.

The DH put down an impressive lap time as did the Mach. The S650 in general is a really good car, it’s not enough of an upgrade for me personally to move on from my 2022 but it would be a big upgrade over the S197 and possibly even the 2015-2017 cars (not looking to start a battle as far as looks, interior, etc, but from a pure performance numbers standpoint the S650 is an upgrade)

All that aside, I’m just glad Ford is continuing on with the Mustang in general and specifically with V8’s. It’s a shame the others are bowing out, competition is always a good thing

 

[RedTetsu13]

I have to disagree, I don’t think they are Ford haters. I do think Thomas is a bit salty about Ford not giving them a Mach to do a lap time with, but he had plenty of good things to say about the DH. And he absolutely loves the GT350/R. They’re not the biggest fans of the regular GT PP1 but to be fair the GT PP1 is not built for the track like a Mach, DH or even a PP2.

The DH put down an impressive lap time as did the Mach. The S650 in general is a really good car, it’s not enough of an upgrade for me personally to move on from my 2022 but it would be a big upgrade over the S197 and possibly even the 2015-2017 cars (not looking to start a battle as far as looks, interior, etc, but from a pure performance numbers standpoint the S650 is an upgrade)

All that aside, I’m just glad Ford is continuing on with the Mustang in general and specifically with V8’s. It’s a shame the others are bowing out, competition is always a good thing

I feel like TH is anti-Ford. It's hard to blame them when Ford won't give them cars to review, but if their reviews are biased, then it makes them entertainment only with a lot less useful content than they could have.

This. If anything, and, this is because Thomas especially more so than James always looks at cars with a heavy track focused lens. He owns multiple old school cars that have really crisp feedback through the wheel and he gravitates to cars that give him that in these segments. Plan and simple.
This is something that Matt Farah confirmed in his drive review of the new GT as a secondary source which was steering feel/feedback was non-existent (or at least not improved vs the S550 which one can argue was the primary weakness of the our cars that's not addressable in any shape or form). To go on even more watch Carlos Lago's DH review on the Car and Driver channel, says the exact same sentiment and one can argue this was the biggest opportunity Ford had to improve the S550 chassis vs S650.

Also keep in mind Thomas loves the GT350 and the GT500 (primarily because of the steering and the chassis dynamics, see the theme?

Regarding the review, keep in mind what youtube is pushing for views right now. Unfortunately shortform content. For creators like TH they have to be very methodical with how long their videos are. Unless its a sit down chat, most of their videos rarely run past the 20 odd minute mark. I'm sure if they do an extra TH update or have the ability to expand on it without limit I think you would see more of the discussion you're looking for.

I do agree they probably should've broken their usual rules like the GT PP2 and SS 1LE video (putting them on the same tire) but at the same time most people who watch 'car' reviews will not be subbing out tires from what the car came with any time soon. Which is why the run the Manufacturer tires to begin with for comparison. Answering the question what gets you the best $$ for value that you are willing to pay for.

Its similar logic as the lightning laps as car and driver. What do I get for my money paying for a car straight from the factory and taking it to the track. They weren't able to take the mach1 out on track because Ford and owners, so the fact they were able to do this video in general can be just short of a miracle in a sense.

 

[Hack]

I have to disagree, I don’t think they are Ford haters. I do think Thomas is a bit salty about Ford not giving them a Mach to do a lap time with, but he had plenty of good things to say about the DH. And he absolutely loves the GT350/R. They’re not the biggest fans of the regular GT PP1 but to be fair the GT PP1 is not built for the track like a Mach, DH or even a PP2.

I would agree with you if they had compared the DH to the 1LE and in the other video if they would have compared the PP1 to a lesser SS.

This. If anything, and, this is because Thomas especially more so than James always looks at cars with a heavy track focused lens. He owns multiple old school cars that have really crisp feedback through the wheel and he gravitates to cars that give him that in these segments. Plan and simple.
This is something that Matt Farah confirmed in his drive review of the new GT as a secondary source which was steering feel/feedback was non-existent (or at least not improved vs the S550 which one can argue was the primary weakness of the our cars that's not addressable in any shape or form). To go on even more watch Carlos Lago's DH review on the Car and Driver channel, says the exact same sentiment and one can argue this was the biggest opportunity Ford had to improve the S550 chassis vs S650.

I've also seen reviews of the new Mustang where they say that there is a lack of feedback with the junky PP1 tires, but good feedback with the stickier tires. Past reviews of the Camaro always said the steering was precise, but numb and that Mustangs had better feedback. There are some reviewers that I find more believable than others.

Ford says the new steering should have better feedback. So I get the impression that Thomas has an axe to grind more so than the steering suddenly became terrible in the Mustang. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Also keep in mind Thomas loves the GT350 and the GT500 (primarily because of the steering and the chassis dynamics, see the theme?

The "chassis" is essentially the same in all Mustangs since 2015. Most models have soft bushings, shocks and springs. The performance models have stiffer suspension setups and larger, stickier tires. It doesn't make sense to me that the DH lost something essential that the GT350 had. The Mach 1 and DH with handling packages and GT350 should be very similar as far as handling goes. Time on track says that the Mach 1 and DH suspensions might even be slightly superior. They certainly produce similar times.

Yes the GT350 has better brakes and a better engine, but handling should be roughly equivalent. Unless someone is trying to say Ford lost the formula on how they made the GT350 good? Like I said, that makes no sense.

I think the explanation is that the GT350 review was before Ford stiffed Throttle House. That seems to be the simplest explanation.

Regarding the review, keep in mind what youtube is pushing for views right now. Unfortunately shortform content. For creators like TH they have to be very methodical with how long their videos are. Unless its a sit down chat, most of their videos rarely run past the 20 odd minute mark. I'm sure if they do an extra TH update or have the ability to expand on it without limit I think you would see more of the discussion you're looking for.

Good point. Makes sense.

 

[RedTetsu13]

I've also seen reviews of the new Mustang where they say that there is a lack of feedback with the junky PP1 tires, but good feedback with the stickier tires. Past reviews of the Camaro always said the steering was precise, but numb and that Mustangs had better feedback. There are some reviewers that I find more believable than others.

Ford says the new steering should have better feedback. So I get the impression that Thomas has an axe to grind more so than the steering suddenly became terrible in the Mustang. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I having driven both back to back in the automatic form (granted again talking Supercar 3 vs Pilot Sport Cup 2's) I'd agree with the sentiment that was in line with most of the notable automotive reviewers that the Camaro just has the sharper nose (you just have the natural slop/gooiness/deadzone on mustangs). Granted I haven't had the opportunity to really compare with the GT350/500 variants.

Jack from SavageGeese even highlighted/admitted that unless you are driving the cars back to back you really won't notice a difference unless you put significant mileage on your S550.

The "chassis" is essentially the same in all Mustangs since 2015. Most models have soft bushings, shocks and springs. The performance models have stiffer suspension setups and larger, stickier tires. It doesn't make sense to me that the DH lost something essential that the GT350 had. The Mach 1 and DH with handling packages and GT350 should be very similar as far as handling goes. Time on track says that the Mach 1 and DH suspensions might even be slightly superior. They certainly produce similar times.

Yes the GT350 has better brakes and a better engine, but handling should be roughly equivalent. Unless someone is trying to say Ford lost the formula on how they made the GT350 good? Like I said, that makes no sense.

I think the explanation is that the GT350 review was before Ford stiffed Throttle House. That seems to be the simplest explanation.

I don't disagree with all the points you made in the first half of your first paragraph. I don't think anyone is arguing your second sentence in the second paragraph either (at least I haven't seen that at all).

Most of my thoughts on this subject matter, I always try to look half glass full rather than empty and take a single review with a grain of salt unless the words are consistent across all other reviewers (which if you look at similar minded reviewers like Matt Farah, Carlos Lago, the SavageGeese gents, and hopefully Paul & Todd from Everyday Driver, and Jason Cammisa when he releases the upcoming video on Hagerty's channel) they are fairly consistent.

I mean even if what you do say is true, it would need to be shown across their other reviews and also their purchasing decisions as well, which again is more or less countered by the fact TH (primarily Thomas) traded the RAM in for the F150 Hybrid. If they had really been anti-ford I doubt they would've done this in the first place, or kept it hidden from the viewers.

But again we can always speculate and it really doesn't mean anything to begin with.

I'm always just going to reserve my judgements after I try to get my hands on the car or if every single reviewer who aligns with my values has a unanimous agreement on the vehicle in question.

 

[RedTetsu13]

Also just to add fuel to the fire edmunds just dropped their track review of the DH, watching as we speak:

 

[Hack]

I having driven both back to back in the automatic form (granted again talking Supercar 3 vs Pilot Sport Cup 2's) I'd agree with the sentiment that was in line with most of the notable automotive reviewers that the Camaro just has the sharper nose (you just have the natural slop/gooiness/deadzone on mustangs). Granted I haven't had the opportunity to really compare with the GT350/500 variants.

I have driven several Camaros through the years, and none of them seemed that sharp or special to me. I was even actively looking to buy something else, because I wanted to own something other than all Mustangs. I ended up in a C5 Z06, which still had a mediocre LS engine, but the suspension and weight of the car made it a much better handling car than the Mustang or the Camaro. The only reason I sold the C5 is it doesn't have enough headroom for me. All the other nits I had with that car could have been fixed over time.

I have driven 1LEs, but I didn't like the engine and the shifter very much. I liked the sound of the engine, but the way it produced power didn't do that much for me. The Coyote is better in my opinion and it's not even close as far as I'm concerned. But I haven't been fortunate enough to drive one on track. Maybe that would change my mind.

The thing is, I would still have to live with the engine and shifter every day even if the track performance was stellar. It's not enough for me. I would love to live at the track and have that be my absolute top priority, but I have to admit I spend 99% of my time on public roads. So since I've never noticed anything impressively different about the Camaro, I'll probably never own one.

I do have to admit I'm also swayed by the direct injection only engines in Camaros, which I don't like. And to me the interior isn't very good, although I do like the non-Recaro Camaro seats.

 

[RedTetsu13]

I have driven several Camaros through the years, and none of them seemed that sharp or special to me. I was even actively looking to buy something else, because I wanted to own something other than all Mustangs. I ended up in a C5 Z06, which still had a mediocre LS engine, but the suspension and weight of the car made it a much better handling car than the Mustang or the Camaro. The only reason I sold the C5 is it doesn't have enough headroom for me. All the other nits I had with that car could have been fixed over time.

I have driven 1LEs, but I didn't like the engine and the shifter very much. I liked the sound of the engine, but the way it produced power didn't do that much for me. The Coyote is better in my opinion and it's not even close as far as I'm concerned. But I haven't been fortunate enough to drive one on track. Maybe that would change my mind.

The thing is, I would still have to live with the engine and shifter every day even if the track performance was stellar. It's not enough for me. I would love to live at the track and have that be my absolute top priority, but I have to admit I spend 99% of my time on public roads. So since I've never noticed anything impressively different about the Camaro, I'll probably never own one.

I do have to admit I'm also swayed by the direct injection only engines in Camaros, which I don't like. And to me the interior isn't very good, although I do like the non-Recaro Camaro seats.

I mean we are all here for one reason or another, otherwise I think the camaro would've lived on

Again I think in every single comparison I've seen TH do of Mustang vs Camaro, they always highlight Mustang just does the drama, and excitement better. Not trying to discount your experience but again we all feel or react to things differently so that could be something going on. I had the ability to do back to back drives with the Camaro and Mustang (6th gen to 6 gen, if I remember right one was a used 2018 mustang vs the 2016 camaro) while doing my small stint as a porter at car dealership (never doing that type of work again lol). Maybe my feelings would change on track but at this point in time my experience is inline with most of the reviewers I trust to watch.

That said I'm similar to you, I find the coyote way better than the Camaro's (granted I'm a 100% biased to dual overhead cams due to coming from the JDM background for what really got me into cars). Like you I doubt I'll ever own one, at least as a single car solution primarily because I hate cars that compromise sight (I know you can get used to it, but why compromise, right?). My only real gripe with the car was shifter feel (which was reinforced tasting the waters of an MGW owner that I met at Cars and Coffee) and getting the suspension dialed to my needs (which has been a b*tch from a research standpoint/a lot of differing methods converging to the same solution lol.

 

[Cordero1]

Watched the video just yesterday. Also agree on the biased opinion. Or at least thats what I got from the guy in black hair. You can easly see he is a big Camaro fan. Which there is nothing wrong with being more of a fan of one than the other, but you can see it come out in his review.

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