Michael goes to the track...

[BimmerDriver]

Short version: This past weekend I did a HPDE at VIR with the BMW club and my Mustang GT. I had fun.

Long version: As background, I have been doing HPDE (High Performance Driving Event) since the early nineties, I was an instructor for many years and I've driven on many tracks, with a lot of time at VIR in all but the Grand Course, with my favorite configuration being the North Course. This weekend was North. Yeah!

I have owned several Corvettes, C4 through C7 including one Z06, several Porsche 911s 964 through 991 and a 981, and a myriad collection of BMWs including M2, M3 and M5. Most of my cars have been on the track at some point.

Two years ago I was debating buying the Mustang GT but instead bought the M2. Instant buyer's remorse on that one.

This year I sold the M2 and bought a new Mustang. I shopped the GT, PP1 and Bullitt models and settled on a base GT, partly for budget but mostly because for me and my needs, it was what I wanted. I figured that for the price difference, I could upgrade any areas that needed upgrading as time and needs demanded.

For the track, the only prep I did was new vented rotors (for better cooling) from Steeda, track pads from G-LOC and better tires from Michelin. The base GT came with Pirelli Nero all seasons, which are comfortable and quiet and may do OK in the rain and light snow, but lack grip in the dry.

Thanks to my fellow forum members, I was able to buy the brakes used (except for new rear pads) and the wheels and tires very very very slightly used (like 300 miles) off of a Bullitt for less than the cost of new tires. A win-win.

And of course, while putting on the brakes I bled the system with ATE fluid.

So, I see now that the introduction will be longer than the actual story. The car did great. The brakes exhibited very little fade, although the pad material build-up on the rotors was quite excessive and unpleasant. Apparently G-LOC does that when they get very hot. I'll need to work on some cooling options. The handling of the car is very good, there is some propensity to understeer, which is perfectly normal and designed into the chassis with those skinny little sway bars, and exacerbated by the staggered wheel/tire combo. Not as bad as the M2 though. When the car does break loose, it is easily controllable and communicates well. The steering is not Porsche-precise, but then, nothing else is either (except a Porsche). The car naturally has a bit of body lean and on some hard corners there is a delay while all of the soft bushings and springs settle down and "set" into the turn. The upside of this soft suspension is (for me) a comfortable ride to and from the track, and when you hit curbing or rough transitions, the car soaks them up without getting unsettled or hopping across the track.

It was a hot weekend with temps in the upper 80s. Never did the car overheat, the oil temperature was hot but below limits even with the factory fill of 10W20. I was not redlining it through the course, as the car isn't really quite broken-in yet, but I wasn't babying it either. I usually topped out at 110 MPH for my personal comfort level, but I did see 125 once keeping up with some silly BMW thing and I didn't notice the hood flopping around or any other issues.

The gearing is too high for serious track work. I see now the advantage of the PP differential change, but I'm not racing, I'm out having fun, so it's not a real concern.

I did notice that the Coyote engine, as others have mentioned, really does shine above 5K. It pulls strongly all the way to redline, but it really comes into its own at 5K and above. There were several times in sections of the track where I'd have an M4 or Porsche glued to my bumper at the beginning of a turn and as the mighty Mustang got into the power band, I'd just walk away from them. It was fun.

The cars that were consistently faster than me (not accounting for better driving, natch) all had better rubber. Serious drivers will want Pilot Sport Cup or real race tires to maximize their potential, but I've BTDT and for me now, the Pilot Sports will be fine. Maybe when they wear out...

Conclusion: no complaints about the Mustang. I had some real doubts before as to how it would do. There is no buyer's remorse on this car. I was very pleased with the performance of the car, even in (mostly) base stock form. The seats could be more supportive, but like everything else there's a trade-off, and if I want it to be easy to get in and out of the car, then I'm not going to get heavily bolstered seats. I'm happy.

Oh, and hey you guys that want to make the car faster and throw all kinds of stuff at it - do a driving school instead. Make improvements to the driver, not the car. These things are incredibly capable and a lot of fun in stock form. Find a club, like the BMW club, Porsche, heck, maybe even a Mustang club that does these things at a track near you. It's the most fun you can have out of bed.

And if I do convince you to do a driving school, please be sure that it is a school and not just an open track day. Real schools have classroom sessions, in-car instruction and are generally safer. You do not need to upgrade your brakes or tires, not for your first time. You do need to have the car inspected for safety, and bleed the brakes. And of course, whatever tires you do have should be in good condition, plenty of tread, not too old. Other than that, your car will do just fine as is.

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[m3incorp]

Thanks, that was a nice write-up.

 

[Elp_jc]

Nice write-up. But auto or manual? You didn't say. Nor mentioned anything about the performance of the tranny. It'd be nice to hear your thoughts about that too .

I also wanted a 'jack of all trades', and my Bullitt is very close. It's perfect for me, but probably a tad firm for my wife. Just wish MagneRide had a 3rd 'comfort' setting, and it'd had been perfect. But it feels awesome in the twisties, and wouldn't like it any less capable than that, so I'm glad I went with PP1+MR, rather than base. I also don't like to mess with my vehicles anymore, so PP1+MR was the right call. No need to upgrade anything for my needs. I also have several track schools on my belt, but don't do track days. Just wanted to have the driving skills to enjoy my sports cars safely. Have also owned several Corvettes, Porsches, BMWs, Audis, Nissan GTR, etc., and I'm very happy with the performance of my 'lowly' Mustang .

 

[BimmerDriver]

Nice write-up. But auto or manual? You didn't say. Nor mentioned anything about the performance of the tranny. It'd be nice to hear your thoughts about that too .

Hi JC, sounds like we have a similar car history background. I concur that the magnaride needs a comfort setting. That might have pushed me into the Bullitt seat.

My car is a manual. I had no issues with it, neither with overheating or shifting difficulties on track. The car has only 1K miles on it now, and although there is a slight bit of notchiness going into second, it's nothing compared to what most BMW and Porsches are like. I confess that knowing that it came from China does not please me at all.

I grew up learning to drive on a British car that would grind into second every time (they all do that) and did not have a synchronized first gear, and then with the truck-like crunchers that they put into Corvettes. The older BMW Getrags were like butter, but the synchros would wear badly and I believe that BMW beefed them up in later years, which also added to the notchiness. BMW has done so much to their manuals to increase longevity (and reduce warranty repairs) that I can barely stand them now (CDV, etc.). Porsche transmissions are generally pretty good, but difficult when cold. So this Mustang is as good or better than most of what I'm used to. Several of the ones I test drove were notchy going into second, so I either lucked out on this one or because it had little test drive miles on it and had not been abused, maybe that helped.

 

[Elp_jc]

Thanks brother. Yeah, I'm also surprised at all the hate on the MT-82. My last Corvette had a defective TR6060 2nd gear synchro right off the truck, so an obvious factory defect. I learned Tremec switched to a weird (and larger) 2nd gear synchro with side teeth, supposedly beefier. And it shifted like a truck, like you said. ha ha. So I don't get the love for Tremecs here, but apparently they do take more abuse when not defective. I don't need that either. I have the same slight notchiness on the 1-2 shift as you, but also the 2-3 'nibble', which supposedly goes away after some break-in. We'll see. But still, this tranny is one of the best I've owned (especially after fully hot), so no complaining either. As you know, there's no perfect manual tranny, especially when cold, but this one is pretty darn good IMO. The clutch is a little tricky, but I welcome the challenge to master it (working on that ). Best clutch is still the Porsche. I can always drive them like a pro right off the bat; they're that easy.

I'm hitting on 1K miles too, and want to replace all drivetrain fluids. Thinking of upgrading the tranny to Redline DCTF, which supposedly improves the little issues we're discussing. And it's approved by Ford, so might give it a try. Also want to change the Torsen fluid, but I'm having a harder time to choose which viscosity. If you have any input on that, it'd be welcome. Take care.

 

[BimmerDriver]

Thinking of upgrading the tranny to Redline DCTF, which supposedly improves the little issues we're discussing. And it's approved by Ford, so might give it a try. Also want to change the Torsen fluid, but I'm having a harder time to choose which viscosity. If you have any input on that, it'd be welcome. Take care.

I've heard nothing but good things about Redline. Me, personally, I stick with manufacturer recommended viscosity. Those engineers are a lot smarter than me. Admittedly, not a high bar. LOL

I did the Steeda clutch assist spring, which increases the effort but improves the feel. It's a common upgrade for forum members, and although stupid expensive for just a spring, hey, in the grand scheme of things, it's cheap.

 

[Zathras]

Thanks for the writeup, we don't often hear reports about the base-level GT on a track, because most people who are interested in hard driving go for the performance pack options. It's nice to hear that the base level, with good tires and mild brake upgrades, doesn't embarrass itself. And I'm sure your level of prior experience helps to get the most out of it.

 

[TX-2019-Black_GT]

Great post with excellent advice at the end. The base GT really holds its own at the track. I was at a HPDE with a few GT350s, and they were not a lot faster, if at all faster, until mine went into a minor limp-mode, and started shifting at 5000 rpm. That made a huge difference in speed, and a GT350 was able to pull away pretty good in a straight then. I've got the Gen3 Coyote, and it really does surge above 5000 rpm. Even near the end of a straight, already at 100 mph, it felt like nitrous kicking in from 5000 up, a real surge in power. It's a great engine. I think I need a little cooling upgrade, but that's about it unless I want to get really serious. I've got to figure out why it limped, and fix that.

Even as a first-timer at HPDE, my lap times were right at 2 minutes, and I've seen a lot of more experienced drivers' youtubes, in cars that cost 2-3-4+ times the GT, that might be about 10 seconds faster.

 

[Elp_jc]

Didn't you get a dash warning? Since you don't have the extra cooling of PP cars, could have been engine, tranny, or differential. Your car should have tranny temp since it's an auto, and maybe diff too. And the engine coolant would have been near the redline, if that's what it was. You didn't pay attention to the gauges? But it'd be very strange if you hit limp mode without a dash warning, but guess it's possible. My bullitt doesn't have tranny temp, and neither oil temp, but with the GT350 gauges now I have it, but it's crap, I learned (extrapolated, so not a true reading).

 

[BimmerDriver]

The M2 out of the box is a better track car, yes. It has better brakes, better cooling, better everything really. In the USA it is almost twice the price of a Mustang GT and about the same as a GT350. It understeers a little bit more. The engine sound is horrible. The ride is brutal. The cost of repairs is very high.

There is more to a car than just being fast on a track. The BMW is a better built, higher quality car than the Ford. With the same driver and the same tires, it is probably faster on the same track. But I enjoyed driving the Mustang more than the M2. It communicates better, it is more tolerable getting to and from the track, it sounds awesome, and I enjoyed the cost saving.

And I hate to point this out, but is it possible that your friend is a better driver than you? Plenty of people in slower cars than mine have passed me in the course of my life.

 

[BimmerDriver]

No, it is not.

Brief story: Many years ago when I was first learning to drive on the track, a friend of mine had an M3 that he and his wife shared. It was in an accident, but he had already paid for an event, so he took his rental car. It was a Dodge Neon, which I doubt was exported, but it was a cheap little 4 cylinder car with maybe 90 HP and a 3-speed automatic. He said that he learned more driving that POS over the weekend than he had ever learned with the M3. A good handling powerful car is the worst thing to learn on. It covers up your mistakes and lets you get away with a bad line and poor braking.

Next time, take the wife's car and yes you'll be slow but you'll learn a lot more. Unless the wife drives a Porsche... LOL

 

[TX-2019-Black_GT]

Didn't you get a dash warning? Since you don't have the extra cooling of PP cars, could have been engine, tranny, or differential. Your car should have tranny temp since it's an auto, and maybe diff too. And the engine coolant would have been near the redline, if that's what it was. You didn't pay attention to the gauges? But it'd be very strange if you hit limp mode without a dash warning, but guess it's possible. My bullitt doesn't have tranny temp, and neither oil temp, but with the GT350 gauges now I have it, but it's crap, I learned (extrapolated, so not a true reading).

Thanks for the reply and input!

I didn't see any dash warnings, but keep in mind, it was only a 'slight' limp mode, not where it totally cuts power, but just enough to protect the engine.
To check the gauges I have to scroll through them. The GT Premium, without the fancier digital dash, has vacuum, fuel air ratio, Oil temp (but only color coded, normal=green, etc. I found a post that lists the oil temp in deg. F for the ranges, mentioned below), CHT, Trans oil temp and intake air temp, these last 3 in degrees F. I did check them at the end of a session, while still on track.

My max oil temp was 280, just at the top end of 'green / normal' just touching 'yellow'.
My trans temp maxed out at 213F, and the gauge isn't 'yellow' until 260, and red at 270, so this does not seem to be the problem.
I have not determined whether the GT has a diff temp sensor. I can't see one (I changed the fluid last night and looked, but it could be somewhere harder to see). Anyway, I can't view it on the dash, but GT350s can. I'll see if it's in the OBD data which I can log, but didn't have working yet when I went to the track.
I did not note the CHT, but with other temps in-line, I doubt it was too high. The CHT gauge does not have green-yellow-red zones.

I keep hearing about the extrapolated oil temps. Here's a post I made regarding that:
I think an actual oil temp sensor doesn't cost much, so I don't know why they would skip it. So, I searched and found in Ford's 2019 OBD System Operation Summary document, p266, info on the engine oil temp (EOT) sensor, which does indeed measure the oil temp. After that, it goes on to explain the 'inferred' oil temp. What the computer does is compare measured to inferred, and if the discrepancy is too large, it sets a diagnostic code indicating the EOT sensor might have failed.
Maybe the GT350 gauge displays the extrapolated temp. but if it does, you can also be sure it's accurate. Otherwise, an error code would be set, when the ECU/PCM computer sees a difference in it and the measured oil temp. The engine does have an EOT sensor! Of course! I'd love to get to the bottom of this widespread 'rumor'

Cheers,
Dan

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