Limp Mode on the Track

[Hack]

So you want them to intentionally use a car that Ford said is not equipped for track duty.

If Ford had said that I would not have purchased this car.

I'll concede that Ford did not, in gigantic bold letters, say that Tech Pack cars are not equipped for track duty. It's in the manual and a few other Ford documents, but it's not plastered all over the web page and dealers are not instructed to lay this out.

Actually it's not said that way anywhere that I can find. What is in the manual is vague enough that it looks more like lawyer language than an actual spec. I will repeat it. If I had read ANYWHERE that the tech pack cars are not equipped for track duty or that they cannot handle a 20 or 30 minute track session, I would not have bought the car.

All I know is....if this as happened over at the bow tie camp, we would be laughing all the way to the dealership.

True.

Gen5 1LE and Z/28 have engine oil overheating issues.

C7 Z06 overheats everything, especially with the automatic.

The 370Z overheats engine oil.

So do many others. It's actually pretty common to require cooling mods on high HP cars for track use, since the demands are so much higher than on the street. A car that is over-engineered for street use may still be marginal for track use. Seems like the GT350 without coolers falls into that category.

I think for most people with track day experience, it isn't surprising given the power, weight, and the fact that a specific package was offered with extra cooling, and that many of us may have struggled with previous cars, or seen people struggle with temps at track days.

With that said, Ford should have just put cooling on all the versions like they are doing for 2017. They dropped the ball on the option packages, and hopefully they come out with some OEM quality cooling kits that can be retrofitted to the 2015 and 2016 cars for less than $2500 (estimating price based on the $6500 track pack option package - $2000 for mag shocks, $500 for strut brace, $1500 for spoiler, $2500 for coolers).

-T

That is news to me (problems with other cars).

$2500 would be a lot for the coolers IMO - unless they were installed for that price and it included modifying the transmission or some other additional services. ;) I have purchased coolers before and they were less than $100. Heck, the main radiator on a car typically costs significantly less than $200.

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[superman07]

the most trackable mustang ever....... I would expect some cooling issues, what I would never suspect is Ford not having even a whiff of sense to consider a cooling path upgrade for the trims that didn't have it. If you cant see the real world customer service and expectation gap flaw there you are daft. sorry to be blunt but it takes a village for some of you that began throwing stones first. We are all fellow owners I would expect less vitriol from many of you but it is just too much to ask.

 

[GOFAST]

Gen5 1LE and Z/28 have engine oil overheating issues.

C7 Z06 overheats everything, especially with the automatic.

The 370Z overheats engine oil.

So do many others. It's actually pretty common to require cooling mods on high HP cars for track use, since the demands are so much higher than on the street. A car that is over-engineered for street use may still be marginal for track use. Seems like the GT350 without coolers falls into that category.

I think for most people with track day experience, it isn't surprising given the power, weight, and the fact that a specific package was offered with extra cooling, and that many of us may have struggled with previous cars, or seen people struggle with temps at track days.

With that said, Ford should have just put cooling on all the versions like they are doing for 2017. They dropped the ball on the option packages, and hopefully they come out with some OEM quality cooling kits that can be retrofitted to the 2015 and 2016 cars for less than $2500 (estimating price based on the $6500 track pack option package - $2000 for mag shocks, $500 for strut brace, $1500 for spoiler, $2500 for coolers).

-T

No, they do not. Not in comparison to what is being spoken about on this thread.

 

[Honus]

Pretty sure all of this goes away with a moderately priced pump/cooler system add on through Ford Performance which doesn't void warranty. I know that's all I really want. I'm not thrilled that my future Tech car might not handle 20 minute HDPE sessions; that was a reason I bought the car (I don't live at the track, I just want to be able to run some fast laps and then drive my car home).

I don't get the fury from Team track-package. I haven't seen many unreasonable demands from Team tech-package. Most of us just want a tech package which will do what it was said it would do... When they said the GT350 would run 20-30 minutes they didn't say "at a reduced speed than the car with all the coolers." (If they knew the difference was this significant they should have specified that "ALL track use should involve the track car, I would've then tried to rig that up instead).

Meanwhile any thread from the tech side looking for better sound options etc is just as overrun with "why would you even buy this car and not listen to the sound of the motor all the time," because, you know, we all buy the same car for only one reason because people don't have different uses for cars or anything.

Plus there was also some implication that the coolers could be added and doing the math between adding coolers vs adding the sync system made the coolers seem easier. Ford did not offer each camp the ability to have its cake and eat it too, so one half of us got some more icing but less cake, when it was implied it would be the same flavor(and the Tech costs 1000 more than Track pack).

The condescension I find bizarre from track to tech owners; coming down on owners of the same car make/model for making a decision based on a different but reasonable set of expectations with the information given at the time the order banks opened/first cars released to date of issues.

I personally would like to thank every high and mighty track pack owner right now who can point to their post from 6 months to a year ago saying, "the tech pack cars are NOT going to be able to run for those 20-30 minute sessions" when the packages were announced.

You don't get to say "I TOLD YOU SO" unless you actually did.

Example thread pre-release: http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39580

Thanks for the post-hoc "you should've known" posts. They are really valuable. Captain-hindsight-PR-release-reading-retcon-powers ACTIVATE.

 

[montreal ponies]

Pretty sure all of this goes away with a moderately priced pump/cooler system add on through Ford Performance which doesn't void warranty. I know that's all I really want. I'm not thrilled that my future Tech car might not handle 20 minute HDPE sessions; that was a reason I bought the car (I don't live at the track, I just want to be able to run some fast laps and then drive my car home).

I don't get the fury from Team track-package. I haven't seen many unreasonable demands from Team tech-package. Most of us just want a tech package which will do what it was said it would do... When they said the GT350 would run 20-30 minutes they didn't say "at a reduced speed than the car with all the coolers." (If they knew the difference was this significant they should have specified that "ALL track use should involve the track car, I would've then tried to rig that up instead).


Meanwhile any thread from the tech side looking for better sound options etc is just as overrun with "why would you even buy this car and not listen to the sound of the motor all the time," because, you know, we all buy the same car for only one reason because people don't have different uses for cars or anything.

Plus there was also some implication that the coolers could be added and doing the math between adding coolers vs adding the sync system made the coolers seem easier. Ford did not offer each camp the ability to have its cake and eat it too, so one half of us got some more icing but less cake, when it was implied it would be the same flavor(and the Tech costs 1000 more than Track pack).

The condescension I find bizarre from track to tech owners; coming down on owners of the same car make/model for making a decision based on a different but reasonable set of expectations with the information given at the time the order banks opened/first cars released to date of issues.

I personally would like to thank every high and mighty track pack owner right now who can point to their post from 6 months to a year ago saying, "the tech pack cars are NOT going to be able to run for those 20-30 minute sessions" when the packages were announced.

You don't get to say "I TOLD YOU SO" unless you actually did.

Example thread pre-release: http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39580

Thanks for the post-hoc "you should've known" posts. They are really valuable. Captain-hindsight-PR-release-reading-retcon-powers ACTIVATE.

I couldn't have said it better myself. And don't forget their are also base car owners in the same boat as tech owners .

 

[lemers]

Pretty sure all of this goes away with a moderately priced pump/cooler system add on through Ford Performance which doesn't void warranty. I know that's all I really want. I'm not thrilled that my future Tech car might not handle 20 minute HDPE sessions; that was a reason I bought the car (I don't live at the track, I just want to be able to run some fast laps and then drive my car home).

I don't get the fury from Team track-package. I haven't seen many unreasonable demands from Team tech-package. Most of us just want a tech package which will do what it was said it would do... When they said the GT350 would run 20-30 minutes they didn't say "at a reduced speed than the car with all the coolers." (If they knew the difference was this significant they should have specified that "ALL track use should involve the track car, I would've then tried to rig that up instead).

Meanwhile any thread from the tech side looking for better sound options etc is just as overrun with "why would you even buy this car and not listen to the sound of the motor all the time," because, you know, we all buy the same car for only one reason because people don't have different uses for cars or anything.

Plus there was also some implication that the coolers could be added and doing the math between adding coolers vs adding the sync system made the coolers seem easier. Ford did not offer each camp the ability to have its cake and eat it too, so one half of us got some more icing but less cake, when it was implied it would be the same flavor(and the Tech costs 1000 more than Track pack).

The condescension I find bizarre from track to tech owners; coming down on owners of the same car make/model for making a decision based on a different but reasonable set of expectations with the information given at the time the order banks opened/first cars released to date of issues.

I personally would like to thank every high and mighty track pack owner right now who can point to their post from 6 months to a year ago saying, "the tech pack cars are NOT going to be able to run for those 20-30 minute sessions" when the packages were announced.

You don't get to say "I TOLD YOU SO" unless you actually did.

Example thread pre-release: http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39580

Thanks for the post-hoc "you should've known" posts. They are really valuable. Captain-hindsight-PR-release-reading-retcon-powers ACTIVATE.

Bravo. What I've been trying to say all along.


2016 GT350 Magnetic w/Black Stripes / Black Roof /Tech Package Build January, ETA March (US Port), Germany Apr, under MSRP

 

[jlwdvm]

I will be taking delivery of my Track Pack car in 2-3 days. I paid more for the Track Pack because I intend to track the car. It seemed like an obvious choice and need for what I plan to do with the car. I track my '13 Boss in Midwest summer heat and have added the trans cooling scoop, brake ducts, high-temp brake fluid, remove grill opening plugs, etc with no problems as of yet (and look at what they did to Track Attack Bosses in Utah!). If I was tracking my Boss without any of the upgrades and I was having trans problems, brake fade, high coolant temps etc would I be able to complain about it?

 

[Sprintamx]

It's stunning how quickly this issue devolved into demonizing and demagoguery. I thought I tuned into a presidential debate or another damn Ford vs. Chevy slabber-knocker.

IF, and let me repeat, IF it turns out to be accurate (admittedly small data set at this point) that non-TP cars CANNOT manage a typical DE / Track Day session for more than 15 minutes then there is no legitimate reason we shouldn't all agree that's some kind of problem. We can debate responsibility, causes and solutions--and it's always more fun to do so in the absence of verified facts--but as Honus suggested, how is that situation remotely acceptable to ANY GT350 owner / enthusiast?

Now, just so I can stick my toe in troubled waters here, my personal perspective on why this may be a big Ford blunder--leaving aside all the marketing hoopla about the car and the absence of any clear notice on the potential cooling issue--is that Ford did not leave any obvious OE path to add the tranny and diff coolers. For those of us who chose the Tech pack, have we been obligated by Ford to go develop our own aftermarket cooling solutions. Seriously? Try to untangle that logical snarl.

I am choosing to stay out of the very obnoxious brawling that is developing over what Tech pack buyers should have known about their car's track time durability. Suffice to say I disagree that there was any clear notice or factual basis to conclude a Tech car would always have to retire just as the tires get into a good heat range for grip.

Now, to be constructive, we need more data, more dispassionate analysis, and some sensible (hopefully factory supported) path to resolving this, if it is an issue.

Back to your regular broadcast.

 

[krt22]

I don't get the fury from Team track-package. I haven't seen many unreasonable demands from Team tech-package.

Asking for a viable solution (or at least recommendation) from Ford is completely reasonable. However some of these posts have already reached near lynch-mob type feels. Its going to take some time, not something that is going to happen overnight no matter how riled up people get on forums. Pestering the guys at FP without a whole lot of real data isnt really helpful either.

And for some to think this warrants legal action is just silly. I think the biggest difference in opinions is those who have decent experience at the track vs those who may just be getting into it. The reality is track use is absolutely brutal on the car, but this problem isnt novel or unsolvable, hence not nearly as much up-roar from that crowd. Whats next, shall we seek legal action when our brake pads only last a few track days and the same with the tires? How about fuel mileage? The sticker says 16 yet you get single digits at the track? Where is the uproar there?

When they said the GT350 would run 20-30 minutes they didn't say "at a reduced speed than the car with all the coolers.

So now we have gone from a rumored 15-20 minutes to 20-30 minutes? I'll be honest with you, I don't know if its really smart to run ANY 500hp+ street car for 30 minutes at a time

And on the flip side, the cars are now only lasting 10 minutes vs the 15ish that a few have reported?

I get it, its a shitty situation, you just spent 60k on a car and will have to another 1-2k to sufficiently cool the driveline for track use, but I dont see how some can act completely surprised that its a real issue given what was known and discussed multiple times on here.

I'm sure Ford is aware of the situation at this point, but its going to take a few weeks at a minimum (if not a few months) for them to formally address is. The same group of guys that designed the GT350 are likely already completely swamped with the Raptor, next GT500, etc. Unfortunately engineers don't get to sit on their hands and bask in all the glory once the product is successfully launched.

 

[jlwdvm]

If Ford thought that the Base/Tech packs could handle heat issues at the track, then what is the point of offering the Track Pack...other than a shock and spoiler upgrade? It seems to me that Ford has a different idea of what the intended use is for each package?

 

[krt22]

Very valid point Joe, but some just aren't hearing it. I'm glad to hear your car is inbound shortly!

 

[jlwdvm]

Very valid point Joe, but some just aren't hearing it. I'm glad to hear your car is inbound shortly!

If my car was here I wouldn't be on this forum!

 

[Hack]

If Ford thought that the Base/Tech packs could handle heat issues at the track, then what is the point of offering the Track Pack...other than a shock and spoiler upgrade? It seems to me that Ford has a different idea of what the intended use is for each package?

Ford said the track version could run all day at the track.

I don't need all day. I just need 20-30 minutes - a typical HPDE time. And between being a virtual novice and not being able to afford wrecking the car - I won't be using the full capabilities of the car. I also live in a cooler climate than most. If I end up needing coolers, almost everyone will.

And as has been said many many times already in this thread - my base Mustang GT can handle an HPDE no problem. Ford offers a PP for the Mustang GT, but I didn't need it to go to the track and enjoy myself. We will see whether all GT350s need coolers or not, but at the moment it doesn't look positive.

 

[jlwdvm]

Ford said the track version could run all day at the track.

I don't need all day. I just need 20-30 minutes - a typical HPDE time. And between being a virtual novice and not being able to afford wrecking the car - I won't be using the full capabilities of the car. I also live in a cooler climate than most. If I end up needing coolers, almost everyone will.

Did I miss something from not reading all 26 pages? Are Track Pack cars having heat problems at the track too?

 

[Hack]

Did I miss something from not reading all 26 pages? Are Track Pack cars having heat problems at the track too?

Not sure why you are asking that question, but the track pack cars already have coolers.

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