Levels Performance Intercooler Data

[neodark]

Sorry not comparable graphs, that pull on the MAP core was 75 -145 mph in 5th gear for which it did better than expected, the levels pull looks like 3rd.

You're correct.. Can you do a pull in 3rd to compare? Not legal in the US to go that fast

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[Glenn G]

You're correct.. Can you do a pull in 3rd to compare? Not legal in the US to go that fast

I'll try to get one this week, but it's been hot as f, and work has me so busy I haven't on the Autobahn since Sunday. Might have to wait till the weekend.

 

[gbartolini]

Yeah I'm going on like a month and a half of waiting for my intercooler to be delivered. Can't they make an entire mustang to order in like three months? Summer's going to be over soon.

 

[dcjes]

Yeah I'm going on like a month and a half of waiting for my intercooler to be delivered. Can't they make an entire mustang to order in like three months? Summer's going to be over soon.

How many people and robots build a mustang? Prolly quite a few. Levels is one person, and damn good at what he does.

 

[gbartolini]

How many people and robots build a mustang? Prolly quite a few. Levels is one person, and damn good at what he does.

I'm sure its a great product and I'm looking forward to getting it. I guess I was just never aware that it was a one man show and was going to take months.

 

[TheLion]

Just got off the phone with Nick. According to him my particular unit will go out tomorrow (Friday 29th) as well as many other orders for the Gen 3 Levels Street cores.

The holdup was actually due to brackets he hand on order that took longer than expected to come in to his shop.

I also asked him about any compiled data on the newest core regarding charge temps. He did not yet have any logged data due to him being so busy, however most of his customers with tunes are reporting an average of around 5 to 10 degrees above ambient worst case, depending on tune, mods and their particular environment for what it's worth. While it's not hard data, it's at least an idea.

Now the MAP Stage 1 unit Glenn tested plateaued around 110F on a long WOT 5th gear pull at HIGH speed, which provides a worst case load but a best case air flow (highest exchange rate). Ambient looks to be around 75F from his graph. I'm not sure if Glenn has a tune or other mods, perhaps he can comment on that.

Now this is speculation, but if the levels gen 3 street core sees a 20F rise (giving some error margin by doubling Nick's "reported max charge temps") over ambient under the same conditions, we'd expect around 95F outlet temps for the levels gen 3 street core. This seems very plausible given that the Levels is just shy of 1,000 in^3 volume where the MAP stage 1 is around 600 in^3. Stage 1 IC's seem to be in the range of 600 to 700 in^3 for reference. The Levels is simply a larger core so I would expect better cooling assuming both are reasonably similarly tuned regarding pressure drop.

However the MAP Stage 1 is MORE THAN ADEQUATE for a stock or mildly tuned car from Glenn's data. 110F charge temps are WELL below the 150F safety margin, so the EB should be making good, consistent power. I don't think you could tell the difference in your butt dyno, other than perhaps the levels inducing a slight lag at low RPM (reported by one user, likely it has a slightly higher pressure drop), or perhaps if your sitting in traffic for a long time, the levels may respond quicker (which we already know to be true of all the full size IC's no matter who makes them). It's a give and take. You want more cooling capacity under more sever circumstances or more headroom for high power mods, use a larger cooler. If you want quicker response on an un-modded or lightly modded EB, use stage 1 IC's.

Although, I think the CP-e might edge out the MAP as it's around 700 vs 600, both have end tank diverters and almost no pressure drop compared to stock, so the difference is primarily in surface area and price. Can't get around the fact that the CP-e is cheaper and bigger with all the other features being nearly identical...

 

[gbartolini]

Just got off the phone with Nick. According to him my particular unit will go out tomorrow (Friday 29th) as well as many other orders for the Gen 3 Levels Street cores.

The holdup was actually due to brackets he hand on order that took longer than expected to come in to his shop.

I also asked him about any compiled data on the newest core regarding charge temps. He did not yet have any logged data due to him being so busy, however most of his customers with tunes are reporting an average of around 5 to 10 degrees above ambient worst case, depending on tune and mods for what it's worth.

Now the MAP Stage 1 unit Glenn tested plateaued around 110F on a long WOT 5th gear pull at HIGH speed, which provides the best case air flow. Ambient looks to be around 75F. I'm not sure if Glenn has a tune, perhaps he can comment on that.

Now this is speculation, but if the levels gen 3 street sees a 20F (giving some error margin by doubling his reported max) rise over ambient under the same conditions, we'd expect around 95F outlet temps. This seems very plausible given that the Levels Gen 3 street core is just shy of 1,000 in^3 where the MAP stage 1 is around 600 in^3. It's simply a larger core so I would expect better cooling.

However that little MAP Stage 1 is MORE THAN ADEQUATE for a stock or mildly tuned car from Glenn's data. I don't think you could tell the difference, other than perhaps the levels inducing a slight lag at low RPM (I would expect a larger internal volume to have a slightly higher pressure drop), or perhaps if your sitting in traffic for a long time, the levels may respond quicker (which we already know to be true of all the full size IC's no matter who makes them).

thanks man. where did you get his phone number?

 

[TheLion]

thanks man. where did you get his phone number?

Found it on one of the forums. I'm not going to list it here publicly for his sake, but I can PM it to you if you want.

 

[Glenn G]

Just got off the phone with Nick. According to him my particular unit will go out tomorrow (Friday 29th) as well as many other orders for the Gen 3 Levels Street cores.

The holdup was actually due to brackets he hand on order that took longer than expected to come in to his shop.

I also asked him about any compiled data on the newest core regarding charge temps. He did not yet have any logged data due to him being so busy, however most of his customers with tunes are reporting an average of around 5 to 10 degrees above ambient worst case, depending on tune, mods and their particular environment for what it's worth. While it's not hard data, it's at least an idea.

Now the MAP Stage 1 unit Glenn tested plateaued around 110F on a long WOT 5th gear pull at HIGH speed, which provides a worst case load but a best case air flow (highest exchange rate). Ambient looks to be around 75F from his graph. I'm not sure if Glenn has a tune or other mods, perhaps he can comment on that.
.

Look at my Sig i also logged boost pressure which was ~24 PSI or the absolute limit you want to hit on the tiny stock turbo, I'd love to find a chart for this turbo but I'm sure it's out of the efficiency range at this boost level, probably 50% or so and pumping out tons of heat.

 

[ypena02]

Look at my Sig i also logged boost pressure which was ~24 PSI or the absolute limit you want to hit on the tiny stock turbo, I'd love to find a chart for this turbo but I'm sure it's out of the efficiency range at this boost level, probably 50% or so and pumping out tons of heat.

This is a very good point! A small turbo out of it's efficiency range can put a bigger strain on an Intercooler than a large turbo.

 

[TheLion]

This is a very good point! A small turbo out of it's efficiency range can put a bigger strain on an Intercooler than a large turbo.

According to Adam at AdamTuned that is not he case. In his testing, it was efficient up to about 27 PSI, tapering off from there to I think it was 23 or 24 psi at max rpm. Well above what the factory pistons can take, as they are the weakest link, given that the rods and crank are forged.

Also, the weaker upper end everyone claims is a result of the turbo has little to do with the size of the turbo. Sure a bigger turbo will flow better, but it also shifts the torque band to the higher RPM range and takes longer to spool. At these power levels the gains are minimal if not non-existent. You will be fine with the factory turbo up to about 400hp according to Adam. After you start pushing beyond that, you will need not only a bigger turbo, but also a ported manifold, as the factory manifold is tuned for the factory turbo.

The weak upper end actually has to do with protecting the catalytic converter. All of these aftermarket tunes push catalyst temps well beyond safe limits. While it may not fail immediately, especially depending on how often and how long you wind it out, it will fail much sooner than a factory tune or FR tune which should allow the factory catalyst to last for the life of the car.

Now, I think the high flow aftermarket down pipes with high flow catalyst (most likely palladium instead of the cheap gigantic ceramic catalyst in the OEM downpipe) would handle those higher flow rates and temperatures (or may produce lower temperatures at the same flow rate due to less restriction, thus allowing higher flow rates). If your running anything but a Ford Racing tune (not out yet) or Factory Tune, I would advise going to a cat-less down pipe (assuming you don't have emissions req.) or a high flow catted down pipe.

I'm not sure if there are more serious consequences of a catalyst burnout other than failing emissions. If it gets too hot, it would literally melt and cause catastrophic engine damage, I'm certain your turbo would be gone at the very least. I know with the pos 2001 Impala 9C1 police cruiser I bought as my college car, there were issues with the catalyst actually breaking off and clogging the exhaust, causing catastrophic engine failures, but that was due to temp, rather physical design. A turbo engine would amplify that as were working with much greater pressures and energy.

Now I'm not suggesting that's necessarily the failure mode, but I'm pointing out that exceeding the catalyst safe temperature isn't good and could possibly have much more severe consequences than simply failing emissions and having to buy a new converter...

Take a look at this post for the Focus ST, which references Ford Racing data points put out by Ford Racing explaining why on a stock 2.0L EB it's not safe to lift the top end:

http://www.focusst.org/forum/focus-st-performance/13460-ford-racing-tune.html

I think there is a VERY good chance, we will see something similar with the 2.3L EB. A lot of people say the Ford Racing tune is "weak" compared to other tunes. I would argue it's not weak, it's as strong as you can get with the factory components.

Sure, you can lift the power quite a bit on the upper RPM range with aftermarket tunes, BUT, you better upgrade that down pipe or your going to destroy your factory cat!!! Not only that is the FR tune is still giving you a very substantial gain under the power curve. What's the difference if the power is concentrated at the low end vs upper end? There isn't. Electric motors have a torque curve nearly identical to the twin scroll EB's in shape, all the torque is at the lower range, the higher the RPM, the more the torque falls off relative to RPM. HP is just a ratio of torque vs rpm. Torque moves them, HP sells them. Some of the fastest drag cars are electric. Heck, the Tesla roadster does a 3.7 0-60 and it's the FIRST production electric performance car...just imagine what gains will be had a decade from now.

It's the area under the curve that matters most (I will way that the shape of the curve makes one engine easier to put to use the power than say another) and with bone stock car (other than say an IC upgrade), the only safe area to increase the area under the curve is at the lower and mid. Now if you start modifying the exhaust, you can get more area under both the lower, mid and upper regions, which is better than the FR tune, but the FR tune is assuming your DP and CAT are stock.

 

[TheLion]

And here we have it, some hard data thanks to Glenn. The above image was his 3rd gear run he promised a while back, posted originally on "The big Intercooler thread". We were all wondering how the Levels Street would compare to the smaller Stage 1 units like the MAP Street core. I think we have some interesting data that falls in line with what I would expect given the significant cooling area advantage of the Levels.

From a design standpoint the Levels is NOT a true stage 1, it's a race type even though it's at a Stage 1 price point, so I'm not suggesting the stage 1 units are bad quality, clearly they perform very well and that is what I would expect a factory IC to perform like. The Levels Street is an odd-ball because it's priced at Stage 1 price point but utilities a full sized core design you would expect to see in higher tier units like Full Race, Wagner, MAP Race or other similar IC's.

Your ambient was also very ideal at about 65F according to the graph, with your charge temps rising slowly throughout and ending at about 90F. You also mentioned it tends to change temp about 2x as slowly as what we are seeing from the Levels, meaning it's holding its thermal energy and shedding it a slower rate.

According to the data from neodark a page or two back (the gray background datalog), it appears the Levels charge temp bottomed at almost exactly 80F with only a slight rise and then flattened out at about about 85F during the last 1k rpm. Now neodark lives in Florida according to his sig and it's July when he posted, I think it's reasonable to assume an ambient of around 85~90F, much higher than the 65F ambient in Germany, where Glenn is, yet maintained and ended with a lower charge temp. Again, we would expect this behavior because the Levels Street core has 980 in^3 volume while the MAP Stage 1 unit has about 600 in^3. That's a significant difference and I would expect the performance to reflect that and we now know it does.

I think this can at least shed some light on the questions we were asking on weather it was worth going with the Levels Street core over the other Stage 1 price point IC's like CP-e, MAP, Injen etc.

For a stock car, the stage 1 units are still plenty adequate, your no where near 150F limit and well within the "ideal" charge temp range. So I don't think there's a benefit to upgrading your Stage 1 unless you intend to use it on the track or significantly mod the car, in which case the stage 1 units will start to show their limits.

However, for those sitting on the fence, who have not yet purchased a stage 1 unit, I see no reason to go with the smaller units given the prices are the same unless keeping the active grill shudders and the stock look are high on the priority list (which for some it is).

 

[gbartolini]

Found it on one of the forums. I'm not going to list it here publicly for his sake, but I can PM it to you if you want.

Nothing yet. Its been a month and a half. I feel like I got hosed out of $500.

 

[shelbywannabe]

You will get it. Nobody on here has ever not gotten theirs. You do need to call him though. He will be straight up and tell you whats going on. I put mine on this weekend and its a beast of an intercooler

 

[Blay]

Nothing yet. Its been a month and a half. I feel like I got hosed out of $500.

just wait a lil longer you will get it

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