Interesting Find and a Case for Paper

[TEXAS HEAT]

^^^ LOL! Cut him some slack Adam. I find his over engineered articles to be quite insightful. I do have a question directed at you over in the RGA Post since you're online now.

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[Tune+]

I don't sell the product, I don't get any benefit of saying to use it. I just suggest it based off of real world testing. Dyno, track, etc.


Josh Parker - Went the fastest with stock airbox and green filter.
Yomar - Went the fastest with stock airbox and green filter.
Kris - Made the most power with stock airbox and green filter.
Myself - Made the most power with stock airbox and green filter/AEM DryFlow.

3 out of 4 started with stock air filter first.

I made an additional 11whp peak over the stock filter with AEM DryFlow, and Green filter was near the same.

Having more surface area only matters if it has better airflow. If I have a 12x12 sheet of sheetmetal and drill a 1" hole in the middle and put it over a 12x12 fan is going to struggle. If I turn that sheetmetal into swiss cheese and put it over a fan the fan is not going to struggle and the fat sweaty guy is going to be much happier sitting in front of said fan.

Another thing is how the air FLOWS through the filter. Just being able to get from one side to the other doesn't matter. How the air is diverted once it passes through the filter has a bigger impact.

 

[chadhtx40]

I don't sell the product, I don't get any benefit of saying to use it. I just suggest it based off of real world testing. Dyno, track, etc.


Josh Parker - Went the fastest with stock airbox and green filter.
Yomar - Went the fastest with stock airbox and green filter.
Kris - Made the most power with stock airbox and green filter.
Myself - Made the most power with stock airbox and green filter/AEM DryFlow.

3 out of 4 started with stock air filter first.

I made an additional 11whp peak over the stock filter with AEM DryFlow, and Green filter was near the same.

Having more surface area only matters if it has better airflow. If I have a 12x12 sheet of sheetmetal and drill a 1" hole in the middle and put it over a 12x12 fan is going to struggle. If I turn that sheetmetal into swiss cheese and put it over a fan the fan is not going to struggle and the fat sweaty guy is going to be much happier sitting in front of said fan.

Another thing is how the air FLOWS through the filter. Just being able to get from one side to the other doesn't matter. How the air is diverted once it passes through the filter has a bigger impact.

Nobody makes me sweat my own sweat

 

[TEXAS HEAT]

I don't sell the product, I don't get any benefit of saying to use it. I just suggest it based off of real world testing. Dyno, track, etc.


Josh Parker - Went the fastest with stock airbox and green filter.
Yomar - Went the fastest with stock airbox and green filter.
Kris - Made the most power with stock airbox and green filter.
Myself - Made the most power with stock airbox and green filter/AEM DryFlow.

3 out of 4 started with stock air filter first.

I made an additional 11whp peak over the stock filter with AEM DryFlow, and Green filter was near the same.

Having more surface area only matters if it has better airflow. If I have a 12x12 sheet of sheetmetal and drill a 1" hole in the middle and put it over a 12x12 fan is going to struggle. If I turn that sheetmetal into swiss cheese and put it over a fan the fan is not going to struggle and the fat sweaty guy is going to be much happier sitting in front of said fan.

Another thing is how the air FLOWS through the filter. Just being able to get from one side to the other doesn't matter. How the air is diverted once it passes through the filter has a bigger impact.

So flow wise, you found the AEM Dry Flo to perform on par with the Green filter? Having owned both on the EBM, my impression was the AEM did not flow as well as the Green, but I have no data to back that claim up. I can actually hear the induction noise with the Green filter whereas not so on the AEM... FWIW

 

[Tune+]

So flow wise, you found the AEM Dry Flo to perform on par with the Green filter? Having owned both on the EBM, my impression was the AEM did not flow as well as the Green, but I have no data to back that claim up. I can actually hear the induction noise with the Green filter whereas not so on the AEM... FWIW

Intakes make a lot of noise, but make less power. So based on your theory an intake should make a ton of power!

 

[TheLion]

Yes, Absolutely...

There was supposed to be a cartoon pic there with the worth Truth being "excavated" from the ground (aka Truth was buried). After posting I realized the link was so long that the forum wouldn't recognize it, so I tried to convey the information by other means such as an explanation. Of course you would jump to a sarcastic response...cliche at best.

But I suppose most users on here might prefer to THINK they are getting something better as opposed to actually getting something better...? Design engineers are design engineers because they love to find the gritty details of the truth, even the lesser of things. But filtration is far more important than you think. The cotton oil filters allowed up to 12 grams of dust, that dust will wear away at the rings and sleeves, over several tens of thousands of miles your going to start seeing higher compression losses. In a high boost FI engine, the effects are multiplied, you of all people should know that!

Case in point, I have a co-worker here with a NA 2001 Honda S2000. He noticed over time his 1/4 mile runs were getting slower and slower but couldn't explain why. Car has a oiled cotton filter (fender well CAI) for most of it's life (primarily a weekend toy) and he runs AMSOIL Sig oil. He did a compression test and found all of his cylinders were low compared to the norm. Car has 100k+ miles on it.

So he scoped the chamber and found scoring on several of the cylinder walls. Obviously this engine is being contaminated and a car that runs 14.1 stock is now running 14.8 at best due primarily to compression loss. There's no oil leaks or irregular oil contamination, only minor consumption which is on par for a car with slightly leaky rings.

Maybe I'm straining at a gnat here, but that's what engineers do and why you have car's like the ecoboost to even play with! The engineers that designed that car and architect-ed the engine, chassis, drive train and PCM software, then made it manufacturable and then created documents on how to actually fabricate said car with thousands of parts and highly specific processes and in particular order generally have done everything for a reason. Even the GT350 uses a conical paper filter...what's better, an extra 3-5hp for first 50k but making 10~20% less power by 100k?

If your setting records or it's a dedicated track, it might make sense to use the highest flowing filters, but the majority of users on this forum do not have dedicated track cars, they drive them daily. There's no arguments about the flow rates (which I originally questioned due to the large discrepancy in surface area, but I did not make any claims of absolute). But those flow rates are only valid when clean, drive it for 5k and all the sudden your high flow filter is now a low flow filter...that's what I"m getting at. The application matters and so do circumstances. For track use they are well suited, my argument is they are ill suited for daily driving. It's not hard to swap out an oiled cotton filter for a paper or AEM when you go to the track...

It's not always a reason we agree with, and there are financial or customer constraints that limit what they can do or influence decisions also. When it comes to filtration every auto manufacturer uses paper filters because they offer the best long term protection. They are NOT the most economical, something like the AEM is more economical and pretty darn close to as convenient as a throw away filter (come on, you spray it and rinse it in the sink, throw it back in).

But hey, make fun of me if you want and do what you will, but I"ll stick with validated engineering processes and information because it works and I"ll share it with those who are interested in listening and taking advantage of it. Yah, I type a lot, get over it, I'm just overly thorough, but that's what makes me good at what I do ;)

 

[Tune+]

There was supposed to be a cartoon pic there with the worth Truth being "excavated" from the ground (aka Truth was buried). After posting I realized the link was so long that the forum wouldn't recognize it, so I tried to convey the information by other means such as an explanation. Of course you would jump to a sarcastic response...cliche at best.

But I suppose most users on here might prefer to THINK they are getting something better as opposed to actually getting something better...? Design engineers are design engineers because they love to find the gritty details of the truth, even the lesser of things. But filtration is far more important than you think. The cotton oil filters allowed up to 12 grams of dust, that dust will wear away at the rings and sleeves, over tens of thousands of miles your going to start seeing higher compression losses.

Case in point, I have a co-worker here with a 2001 Honda S2000. He noticed over time his 1/4 mile runs were getting slower and slower. Car has a oiled cotton filter (fenderwell CAI) and he runs AMSOIL Sig oil. He did a compression test and found all of his cylinders were low compared to the norm. Car has 100k miles on it.

So he scoped the chamber and found scoring on several of them. Obviously this engine is being contaminated and a car that runs 14.1 is now running 14.8 at best. There's no oil leaks, only minor consumption which is on par for a car with slightly leaky rings.

Maybe I'm straining at a gnat here, but that's what engineers do and why you have car's like the ecoboost to even play with! The engineers that designed that car and architect-ed the engine, chassis, drive train and PCM software, then made it manufacturable and then created documents on how to actually fabricate said car with thousands of parts and highly specific processes and in particular order generally have done everything for a reason.

It's not always a reason we agree with, and there are financial or customer constraints that limit what they can do or influence decisions also. When it comes to filtration every auto manufacturer uses paper filters because they offer the best long term protection. They are NOT the most economical, something like the AEM is more economical and pretty darn close to as convenient as a throw away filter (come on, you spray it and rinse it in the sink, throw it back in).

But hey, make fun of me if you want and do what you will, but I"ll stick with validated engineering processes and information because it works and I"ll share it with those who are interested in listening and taking advantage of it. Yah, I type a lot, get over it, I'm just overly thorough, but that's what makes me good at what I do ;)

I use an AEM DryFlow, no oil at all. *Shrug*

When you messaged me you were only making points towards power, and that you felt it was "less power". Well as I stated we are working with less than 5whp here in a stock turbo configuration, extrapolate that for big power cars. However it now sounds that you are preaching contaminants and filtration.

So, do you want the most power or do you want the best filtration? Answer yourself that question and then choose whatever filter you want. In the end this debate is worth less in a percentage than the power on the table.

V2.0 of my build will have no filter at all, BLASPHEMY!!

 

[TEXAS HEAT]

Intakes make a lot of noise, but make less power. So based on your theory an intake should make a ton of power!

I wish intakes on our car made a ton of power, but the reality is that's only true if the factory intake is a restriction. I think there's merit to a larger turbo inlet on smaller turbo which usually needs all of the airflow possible to keep them out of the right side of the compressor map when increasing boost, especially when you're at or near the efficiency threshold. A larger inlet coupled with a free flowing filter, cone or otherwise will yield some gains, if nothing else it will keep the turbo from working as hard (lower shaft speeds) to produce the same amount of pressure. Whether or not this shows an increase in torque and/or horsepower is dependent on the set-up. Air velocity also plays a role here as well.

Having said all of that, I switched from the AEM Dry Flow to the Green filter and have kept my stock airbox which apparently flows pretty darn well.

 

[TheLion]

What I'm attempting to preach is power over time. All things can be measured over time. Because a car makes x power today does not mean it will make x power 5 years from now when it hits 80k or 100k miles.

I'm trying to argue the point that many people use oiled cotton filters, like myself included, under the impression they make the most power. But that definition is very short sighted, it does not take in account how the filter performs at different points in its service intervals. It allows for better flow when clean, but saturates several times quicker. K&N claims 25k service intervals on average, testing says otherwise...

I'd wager many of us are not cleaning our filters every 5,000 miles. I usually replace or clean my K&N's every oil change on my daily drivers, which is 15k miles or about a year, which is also a typical service interval for most OE filters (assuming your using an oil rated for 15k service interval, AMSOIL sig is specked for 15k under severe conditions including for TDI engines and 25k for moderate conditions).

I'm arguing from a standpoint of how consistently we can make power over time as the filter saturates, which is a real world condition. It's not realistic to have your filter perfectly clean the majority of the time, that's where all the testing occurs, under the "perfect condition". How many people clean their filters right before they track the car? How many people clean them every 5k or less to make sure they are getting the highest flow consistently?

So I"m preaching both, power and filtration. Clean engines make more power than dirty engines. Smooth in tolerance rings and sleeves seal better than worn, scored or out of tolerance rings an sleeves.

Generally what I"m trying so hard to get at is quite simple, your average power may actually be greater over the service interval and life of the car with higher capacity and higher filtration (more restrictive) filters...I can't definitively prove this, but we have some really compelling information in the previous links if you read through them. My experiences with the rapidity of contamination of the Green Filter in my car are what started this whole thread and my digging deeper.

Take it for what's its worth. I'm not trying to disprove you making the best power with the stock airbox and green filter with a BIG MOUTH ram air duct mod under ideal circumstances (aka clean filter), there's no question about that, in fact that's why I bought a green filter because of your recommendation and proven results.

But what I found (and didn't initially consider) was that you cannot maintain that level of performance on a daily driver without constant maintenance. There are people running similar setups that may be actually hurting performance on average after just a few thousand miles and decreasing the service life of their rings and sleeves without really realizing it. Just like my co-worker and his S2000, you may not find out until you have an expensive and involved problem on your hands. I for one do not want to have to replace the rings and re-bore during the normal operating life of the car (150k to 200k is what I expect).

As you said, you won't really feel the 10 hp or so difference short term, but over time it will become greater and greater and will start to make a noticeable difference. Maybe everyone has thought this all out and I"m just preaching to the quire here...:shrug:

I'm just trying to think outside of the normal paradigm and bring to light considerations I don't think have been...considered :shrug: Remember also I actually recommended the AEM dry flow you personally use as a higher performance alternative to OE paper, but perhaps for different reasons? I suggested based on standardized testing it provided filtration on par with OE paper filters, but with better air flow, albeit not quite as good as the Green Filter or K&N's. Anyway, I think everyone should have plenty of info on the subject, but perhaps from a different angle or lens than this subject has been looked through in the past.

But for a daily driver, which you want to continue to make consistent power over it's life, weather at the track or on the street, the OE paper will serve you better over the life of the car than the Green Filter. The AEM dry flow is a good compromise between OE paper and the Green Filter due to it's much higher dust capacity, superior filtration is improved flow over OE paper if you want to eek out as much performance without sacrificing filtration / risking premature wear on the rings and sleeves.

 

[xXANCHORMONXx]

:headbonk::frusty:

 

[ypena02]

You better remove all of yours mods and return your car to stock then as you could shorten the life of the engine due to the extra strain that the engine wasn't designed for by the Ford Engineers.

 

[Tommy556]

How is the K&N filter compared to the green filter? Are they similar in actual performance?

 

[TEXAS HEAT]

What I'm attempting to preach is power over time. All things can be measured over time. Because a car makes x power today does not mean it will make x power 5 years from now when it hits 80k or 100k miles.

I'm trying to argue the point that many people use oiled cotton filters, like myself included, under the impression they make the most power. But that definition is very short sighted, it does not take in account how the filter performs at different points in its service intervals. It allows for better flow when clean, but saturates several times quicker. K&N claims 25k service intervals on average, testing says otherwise...

I'd wager many of us are not cleaning our filters every 5,000 miles. I usually replace or clean my K&N's every oil change on my daily drivers, which is 15k miles or about a year, which is also a typical service interval for most OE filters (assuming your using an oil rated for 15k service interval, AMSOIL sig is specked for 15k under severe conditions including for TDI engines and 25k for moderate conditions).

I'm arguing from a standpoint of how consistently we can make power over time as the filter saturates, which is a real world condition. It's not realistic to have your filter perfectly clean the majority of the time, that's where all the testing occurs, under the "perfect condition". How many people clean their filters right before they track the car? How many people clean them every 5k or less to make sure they are getting the highest flow consistently?

So I"m preaching both, power and filtration. Clean engines make more power than dirty engines. Smooth in tolerance rings and sleeves seal better than worn, scored or out of tolerance rings an sleeves.

Generally what I"m trying so hard to get at is quite simple, your average power may actually be greater over the service interval and life of the car with higher capacity and higher filtration (more restrictive) filters...I can't definitively prove this, but we have some really compelling information in the previous links if you read through them. My experiences with the rapidity of contamination of the Green Filter in my car are what started this whole thread and my digging deeper.

Take it for what's its worth. I'm not trying to disprove you making the best power with the stock airbox and green filter with a BIG MOUTH ram air duct mod under ideal circumstances (aka clean filter), there's no question about that, in fact that's why I bought a green filter because of your recommendation and proven results.

But what I found (and didn't initially consider) was that you cannot maintain that level of performance on a daily driver without constant maintenance. There are people running similar setups that may be actually hurting performance on average after just a few thousand miles and decreasing the service life of their rings and sleeves without really realizing it. Just like my co-worker and his S2000, you may not find out until you have an expensive and involved problem on your hands. I for one do not want to have to replace the rings and re-bore during the normal operating life of the car (150k to 200k is what I expect).

As you said, you won't really feel the 10 hp or so difference short term, but over time it will become greater and greater and will start to make a noticeable difference. Maybe everyone has thought this all out and I"m just preaching to the quire here...:shrug:

I'm just trying to think outside of the normal paradigm and bring to light considerations I don't think have been...considered :shrug: Remember also I actually recommended the AEM dry flow you personally use as a higher performance alternative to OE paper, but perhaps for different reasons? I suggested based on standardized testing it provided filtration on par with OE paper filters, but with better air flow, albeit not quite as good as the Green Filter or K&N's. Anyway, I think everyone should have plenty of info on the subject, but perhaps from a different angle or lens than this subject has been looked through in the past.

But for a daily driver, which you want to continue to make consistent power over it's life, weather at the track or on the street, the OE paper will serve you better over the life of the car than the Green Filter. The AEM dry flow is a good compromise between OE paper and the Green Filter due to it's much higher dust capacity, superior filtration is improved flow over OE paper if you want to eek out as much performance without sacrificing filtration / risking premature wear on the rings and sleeves.

In the case of your buddy's S2000, filter location was the detrimental component that led to increased wear due to particulate ingression, which in your case will be accelerated due to the use of the Velossa Tech ram air. As you are aware, they do make pre-filters which are designed specifically for use with air filters that are not sealed by some type of an enclosure. Do they restrict flow? Yes, but they're used to provide better filtration in extreme environments. Since that is not an option when using the factory drop in replacement, I would stick with the OEM paper, or possibly the AEM dry-flow, especially since you're funneling unfiltered air via the ram air duct which as you've observed rapidly degrades the air filters ability to flow/filter. :cheers:

 

[Maggneto]

I always run drop in K&N filters over CAI/OEM filter simply because you never need to replace the K&N filter. It is more economical than a CAI and in some cases replacement paper cost will exceed the K&N.

 

[TheLion]

You better remove all of yours mods and return your car to stock then as you could shorten the life of the engine due to the extra strain that the engine wasn't designed for by the Ford Engineers.

None of the modifications I'm running violate the factory maximum mechanical specifications. I'm not running boost beyond 20 PSI, I'm running a 3.73 GT / Torsen rear when decreases engine load, I'm running a cooler thermostat which decreases cylinder head temps, colder plugs etc.

Might be a different story if I was running higher than spec boost without attaching temperature from all 4 angles...I did not imply because it didn't come from the factory it's not valid. But there are certain specs you do not want to violate and contamination is a very critical one, especially given it's effects on wear as well as creating hot spots which increases risk of knock / super knock.

Clean engines make more power and are less prone to mechanical problems than dirty engines, plain an simple. As the car ages, I'll bet my bottom dollar the ones running the AEM or OE paper filters will be making more power than the ones running oiled cotton filters under real driving conditions, especially if your not cleaning it at shorter intervals. It's a factor of added wear in concert with low capacity. Sure they make a little more power...but for only a short time. They make more sense for track use and less sense for street use applications. That's why OEM's don't use them.

Even the GT350, which is very track oriented top tier variant and featuring $15,000 carbon fiber wheels, a hand built 5.2L flat plane crank V8 unique to that car alone, uses a paper conical filter...there just might be something to it for street cars. One would think a car that's so track oriented would come with an oiled cotton filter given the fact that they even went so far to eek out performance they used ultra light weight carbon fiber wheels...But your welcome to do what you want, you might be fine in the long run or you might end up with compression issues, time will tell. It's not an immediate effect and there's lots of variables such as environment, service intervals etc. But I think many on this forum live in a similar climate with similar circumstances and uses and that's where I'm arguing the OE or AEM Dry filters just make more sense and that's the same reason OEM's are using them.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/wp-con...d-Mustang-Shelby-GT350-GT350R-130-876x535.jpg

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