I drove my first EV

[sk47]

IDK about Europe but I think we dodged the bullet here in the States.

Hello; Fingers and toes crossed. Can see the finish line but have two months during which things can be messed with.

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[SteelJones]

This thread just made me buy this.

Well played.... I happen to own this shirt in the short and long-sleeved variety!

 

[526 HRSE]

I only read half of it but it is obvious to anyone who has run a business, if you sell or forced to sell items that no one wants and to sell them at all you need to take a loss on each unit, you will eventually go out of business unless a secondary force hands you money.

China will win this war because the very large population will pay the difference through tax so the Chinese cars will be cheap and plentiful. The people who work assembling cars and trucks in the UK will be looking for work at Walmart, or standing in bread lines.

Meanwhile people will starve in Europe, China will keep polluting and the Planet will continue to warm or cool, depending on where in the cycle we currently are.

We can not have international trade without tariffs if we don't have international labor wage. If we have to use tariff's, then things will get worse in the United States before it gets better. It's something i'm willing to sign on to for my children and grandchildren.

ie; i'm willing to pay 20-30% more now so that American companies can compete in manufacturing, because, in the end, it brings jobs back here which only strengthens our economy.

People need to realize that the hole that we dug by letting China manufacture everything within 6' of us at any time, didn't happen overnight. We can't fix it overnight. It's going to take time, and it's going to hurt before it gets better.

The only other solution is to lower the minimum wage in America to what it is for Chinese labor.

We cannot have American excellence by doing free trade with other countries that pay there kids .35 cents a day to make Nikes.

 

[K4fxd]

We can not have international trade without tariffs if we don't have international labor wage. If we have to use tariff's, then things will get worse in the United States before it gets better. It's something i'm willing to sign on to for my children and grandchildren.

ie; i'm willing to pay 20-30% more now so that American companies can compete in manufacturing, because, in the end, it brings jobs back here which only strengthens our economy.


People need to realize that the hole that we dug by letting China manufacture everything within 6' of us at any time, didn't happen overnight. We can't fix it overnight. It's going to take time, and it's going to hurt before it gets better.

The only other solution is to lower the minimum wage in America to what it is for Chinese labor.

We cannot have American excellence by doing free trade with other countries that pay there kids .35 cents a day to make Nikes.

The easiest way to bring manufacturing and other companies back to the US is to lower corporate income tax. Drop it to 5 or 10% and the jobs will return faster than you can say Cha-Ching.

 

[526 HRSE]

The easiest way to bring manufacturing and other companies back to the US is to lower corporate income tax. Drop it to 5 or 10% and the jobs will return faster than you can say Cha-Ching.

It will help, but as we have seen many times, the corporations will pocket the money instead of lowering prices. We have to compete on wages. Tariffs tax China's wages.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

This thread just made me buy this.

I thought you bought that when Andy Green set the LSR.

 

[K4fxd]

It will help, but as we have seen many times, the corporations will pocket the money instead of lowering prices. We have to compete on wages. Tariffs tax China's wages.

The way corporations work is the money gets re-invested into the company and the rest goes to wages. Profits get sent to stock holders.

I really don't care if prices come down, if they move manufacturing to the US look at all the people who will have access to good paying jobs.

I know many with business and engineering degrees who work in retail.

 

[sk47]

Hello; Tariffs can be a blunt tool or a selective tool. Used selectively can even the playing field to a degree. I recall back around six years ago deciding to get a shingle roof rather than a metal roof. There was a tariff on foreign metal at the time. I understood the effort to stop foreign interests from dumping cheaper metal roofing. Even tho it was not metal I did use an American made product.
I am old enough to have voted for Ross Pereau in the 1990's. I believed him about the giant sucking sound of jobs leaving.

 

[sk47]

Biden administration makes controversial decision on new metal mine: 'This is going to put us back on the map'
Hello; I think this double standard item has been posted about already.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Biden administration makes controversial decision on new metal mine: 'This is going to put us back on the map'
Hello; I think this double standard item has been posted about already.

Relax. 4-D chess. Trump is sending in special forces to plant those flowers on the land where China mines Lithium. Win Win. Flower is saved and China is bankrupted from having to shut down their mines to save a flower.

 

[sk47]

Relax. 4-D chess. Trump is sending in special forces to plant those flowers on the land where China mines Lithium. Win Win. Flower is saved and China is bankrupted from having to shut down their mines to save a flower.

Hello; If only such could be the case. Not sure why a recall is triggered but here goes. Been a few years but was watching a program about China. Might predate the current EV -green energy stuff. One portion of the film was about an area where the natural pollinators had been eliminated. Not clear in recall just how the pollinators were wiped out. maybe pesticides or some other reason. The thing which has stuck in my mind was about the people having to attempt the pollination by hand.

Over the decades I have watched and also used nature programs as parts of my classroom lessons as well as because i am interested. I still watch such programs. Over the decades that programing has changed. To my mind not for the better in significant ways.
In ways not so unlike mainstream news media, these nature/science programs are no longer unbiased. If I were still teaching, there would be a difficult task involved to mitigate the bias by pointing it out.

 

[SteelJones]

Hello; This is horrible. Maybe place a few those window breaking tools inside every Tesla.

I thought you might also find this article of interest.

https://www.theverge.com/2024/11/22...l-ioniq-5-6-genesis-gv60-gv70-g80-drive-power

 

[sk47]

I thought you might also find this article of interest.

https://www.theverge.com/2024/11/22...l-ioniq-5-6-genesis-gv60-gv70-g80-drive-power

Hello; I try to avoid the first couple of years of a new model or a largely upgraded model so as to give time to get the bugs worked out. Thanks for the information.

 

[Skye]

I've been studying EV safety, looking for data which would highlight how many EVs have been involved in vehicle fires and deaths. I've also sought and found several reports, tests and studies involving damaged EVs.

The following is my research and thoughts on the topic. They might not be yours. I was interested and compiled data until I had an answer. The references are available below.

My takeaway is EVs are as safe as ICE, when involved in a collision, to include the risk of fire. The chance an EV will catch fire in a wreck is often less than ICE. But that doesn't mean EVs are without risk, some of which are significant, especially when dealing with older generations of EVs.

Before the Mexican cartels became the low-cost producer, Methamphetamine labs in the US were prolific. Fires and explosions were common. If you've ever studied how Meth is made (highly recommend you do not do this on your work computer) it's an extremely volatile and hazardous process. First Responders were often walking into a bomb situation. Dealing with EV fires or damaged EV presents many of the same hazards.

I'd like to preface all of my comments by saying none of them make light of these events. The numbers presented represent deaths, people being maimed, property damage and changes in ones' life.

For any of the statistics given, please make note of the year and granularity of that data. There's several factors driving this:

- Fire statistic data gathering and reporting, from the city-to-national level, is often voluntary

- There is no national standard as to what statistics involving vehicle accidents are gathered or how that data is kept. The type and amount of information varies at all levels

- Finding direct EV-to-ICE damage and fire comparisons was generally impossible. I was able to pull some data, only one reference of which was formal

Vehicle Safety Recalls are associated with loss of life, accidents and property damage. Number of recalls in 2023: 1,000. Number of vehicles affected: 35,000,000.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/check-recalls-during-vehicle-safety-recalls-week

Number of vehicle fires, in the US, in 2020: 200,000. Number of vehicle fire deaths: 560. Fires could be anything from a small fire, put out by the owner to one involving death and significant property damage.

https://www.nfpa.org/education-and-...search/fire-statistical-reports/vehicle-fires

https://content.nfpa.org/-/media/Pr...53bbd34&hash=52CF58909C18DDBA81E8E63BE5D52414

In the Summer months, RV fires in my area are somewhat common. These instances often involve an RV that's older and taken out only a few times a year. The Owner has been lax in maintenance or inspection. Number of RV fires, 2018-2020: 4,200. Number of deaths: 15.

https://www.usfa.fema.gov/statistics/reports/where-fires-occur/snapshot-rv-fires.html

I cannot give an exact number as to how many EV fires there have been in the US. The data is not recorded by one agency. Data I'm looking for is not readily available on-line, if at all. There are some indirect references I will highlight. The general takeaway is EV are safer to operate and maintain than other forms of propulsion. EV fires happen. Deaths involving EVs occur. But the rate of those occurrences is a fraction of gasoline-powered vehicles.

The Institute of Electricians and Electrical Engineers (IEEE) references one study, conducted by a government agency in Sweden. I attempted to find that research, in English, but could not.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/lithium-ion-battery-fires

https://www.msb.se/en/publications2/

Australia's Department of Defense collects and verifies EV fire data; they've recorded 511 EV fires from 2010 to 2024. They do admit their data is not exhaustive.

https://www.evfiresafe.com/ev-battery-fire-data

In 2018, the NTSB produced a report involving crash and fire data, by fuel type.

https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/Document/docBLOB?ID=10003553&FileExtension=pdf&FileName=5 Electric Vehicle Fire Data Factual 12212018-Rel.pdf

From 2013-2017 200,000+ vehicles were involved in a crash involving a fatality. Of those, 51 were EVs. 171,220 were ICE. These numbers are not to imply safety. Only to display the number captured for data at that time and how many vehicles in-general are involved in fatal accidents each year.

Later in that report, data is given as to whether a fire occurred as a result of a crash, by fuel type. In diesel vehicles, 4.68% experienced a fire in a crash. Gasoline: 3.22%. EV: 1.96% (1 of the 51).

The numbers I referenced above were part of a report presented in 2018, with data gathered from 2013-2017. The NHTSA has a public portal where one can run database queries.

https://cdan.dot.gov/query

Unfortunately, specifying a vehicle by fuel type is not readily available.

https://cdan.dot.gov/query/Home/DataElementsListPage

I'm still studying this site. I can enter VIN-related information for queries, but there is no one VIN digit in the US that specifies fuel type. I did perform some general queries.

From 2018-2022, Tesla sold 1,634,524 vehicles in the US. Number involved in a fatal crash, with fire: 36. (2.2e-5). That's 2.2 per 100,000. Number involved in a fatal crash, without a fire: 291 (1.78e-4).

From 2020-2022, Ford sold 66,601 Mach Es. Number involved in a fatal crash, with fire: 0. (0%) Number involved in a fatal crash without a fire: 2 (3e-5).

I did not study hybrids, specifically, gas-powered hybrids, but I did a general query on the Prius. The data specifying fire and if the source was gas or the battery would be very granular. It would involve combing through whatever detailed crash reports and analysis there is. It's just not there, not readily available in large enough population numbers to be worthwhile.

From 2018-2022, Toyota sold 296,762 Prius in the US. Number involved in a fatal crash, with fire: 26. (8.76e-5). Number involved in a fatal crash without a fire: 964 (3e-3).

I selected Mustangs. From 2018-2022, Fold sold 309,361 Mustangs. Number involved in a fatal crash, with fire: 83 (2.68e-4). 2.68 per 10,000. Number involved in a fatal crash without a fire: 1927 (6e-3).

Finally, F150s. From 2018-2022, Ford sold 3,957,622 F150s. Number involved in a fatal crash, with fire: 379. (9.57e-5). Number involved in a fatal crash, without: 7981 (2e-3).

In the above, I selected make, model, death, crash and fire. That was as granular as I could get with the tools available. I'm least comfortable with the Mustang data because of the small population and nature of the vehicle (performance). I'm most comfortable with the Tesla and F-150 numbers.

With one exception I'll follow with, I'm satisfied EVs in general are as safe, if not safer, to own and operate than gas or diesel-powered vehicles. I realize not everyone will agree with the data I presented, and that's cool. This was not formal research. I had a question. I answered it to my satisfaction and provided the data for you to study.

In September 2022, Hurricane Ian struck Florida. Three-to-Five thousand EVs were damaged and totaled. Seventeen (.6%-.3%) caught fire. Anything with a Li battery was at risk. Golf carts and power tools also caught fire.

In 2012, Hurricane Sandy damaged 16 Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles (PHEVs). One (.6%) caught fire.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/2023-03/15874-NHTSA SAE GIM 2023_final_032223-tag.pdf

In the slide deck of the briefing above, NHTSA references an EV battery immersion study.

https://rosap.ntl.bts.gov/view/dot/57013

In 2019, seven EV batteries were intentionally submerged in water of differing salinities and durations. The purpose of the test was not to pass or fail a particular manufacturer, but to observe what actually did happen when these batteries are under water.

Of the seven batteries submerged, all took on water. Five gassed-off and discharged. Two, significantly, so much so they were pulled from the test. As a reminder, the study was an observational experiment. It was more valuable tear-down a battery that they knew was going to fail, than one that was burned-up to begin with. Of the two pulled early, review of the internals confirmed arcing and meaningful damage.

After the immersion test, the batteries were intentionally set fire. Before the fire commenced, the batteries had previously been nearly or completely discharged. Even though nearly completely depleted, the batteries were still capable of fueling a larger fire, not from electrical discharge, but from burning the materials themselves.

The tests were some of the initial ones done by the NHTSA on those generations of batteries.

While I wouldn't be concerned owning or being near an EV where I live, anyone in a flood plain, near a river or costal area should be. It's a fire risk that cannot be determined. Maybe the EV battery pack will take on water, discharge and nothing will happen. At the other extreme, it could start an uncontrolled fire.

Also make note of Li-powered tools and other devices. If bugging out, secure those somewhere high-up or take with you; they're capable of catching fire just like an EV.

Not to make light of the risk or the impacts, but Lithium is not the only product in general use which can produce dramatic results. I use equipment at work that, if certain elements are exposed to water (the overhead safety sprinklers), the internals will explode. If near a refinery, study some of the placards on the trucks or railcars, what they are carrying and what happens when exposed directly to the atmosphere or water.

http://www.ilpi.com/msds/ref/unna.html

Hazardous products are marked as four-digit codes on their placards; the number will identify the chemical.

https://fsri.org/research-update/ex...-electric-vehicle-fire-behavior-are-completed

Another reference. Testing on EVs continues. We have over 100 years of crash and test data on ICE and other vehicles. Tesla sold their first vehicle to the public in 2009. Crash and test data on EVs is still quite new.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/2024-02/16180-NSR-231214-003_SAE_Teardown Analysis of Flood-damaged Evs-tag.pdf

This is another study, a tear-down review of batteries. The EVs and battery packs in this study were involved in Hurricane Ian, were flooded out, but did not catch fire. This study gives detailed photos of the different vendors' battery packs and damage seen.

In 2020, NTSB published a study of four vehicles, three which caught fire after significant crashes and one which spontaneously caught fire, in 2018.

https://www.ntsb.gov/safety/safety-studies/Documents/SR2001.pdf

"In each case, emergency responders faced safety risks related to electric shock, thermal runaway, battery ignition and reignition, and stranded energy. The investigation also examined national and international standards established to maximize the safety of electric vehicles and the emergency response guides produced by vehicle manufacturers. The NTSB identified two main safety issues: (1) inadequacy of vehicle manufacturers’ emergency response guides for minimizing the risks to first and second responders (firefighters and tow operators) posed by high-voltage lithium-ion battery fires in electric vehicles, and (2) gaps in safety standards and research related to highvoltage lithium-ion batteries involved in high-speed, high-severity crashes."

The report above is worth reading; it gives a detailed accounting of the challenges first responders, tow truck operators, storage facilities and transport companies face when dealing with on-fire or damaged EVs.

https://maritimesafetyinnovationlab...f-battery-fires-in-electric-vehicles-2020.pdf

This study is more scientific in nature, giving details on what actually happens during these events (energy released, heat, time, gas equivalents, etc.) It again highlights the dangers of dealing with EVs after they've been damaged, especially if on fire.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/2024-04/FMVSS-305a-NPRM-Web-Version.pdf

Finally, a reference to the DOT standard on EV powertrain safety. We have current safety standards implementing various features in our cars now. This amendment will be EV-specific, for powertrain integrity.

 

[K4fxd]

All good @Skye but reality is EV's have brought down cargo airplanes and ships. Call Lloyds of London and ask for rates to insure a cargo ship full of EV's vs the same ship full of ICE.

When it is the same rate I will believe the same safety. I'll park my mustang in my garage, no way will I park a EV in there.

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