I drove my first EV

[accel]

Never drove an ev yet. but had a ride in an uber tesla 3. Was eventually overwhelmingly annoyed with sounds of creaking interior panels, wheels hitting road imperfections in the absence of other sounds. That was all I heard.

Speaking of the future - it should be full of different options - ice, electric, hydrogen whatever.

Otherwise you'll just be had by battery manufacturers instead of oil miners. if you just want to be had by a different group of people, then yes, just go ahead in the direction of you choice's singularity.

Sponsored

 

[MAGS1]

Electricity isn’t free either. Supply and demand will start kicking in and electric rates will go up. And the “free” charging stations won’t be free anymore. So while actual vehicle prices may start to decline, the costs to operate them won’t.

 

[K4fxd]

Anyone that mocks EVs needs to drive one!

I have and I'll quote Tim Allen. "my plaid is the quickest boring car I own"

 

[sk47]

speaking of the future - it should be full of different options - ice, electric, hydrogen whatever.

Hello; A reasonable attitude. Too bad things have gone so far away from a reasonable live & let live state of affairs. I have a theory as to why the ICE = evil attitude came about. Back around the early 2000's it was predicted peak oil would happen by 2004. Those around then saw the big fuel price increases that lasted a few years. Then fracking and other tech such as oil sands oil recovery extended volume production of oil for many decades.
Now we are at a cusp of events. Oil did not become scarce and too expensive. The path for hybrids & EV's was not going to be as easy anymore in the sense of a logical alternative. Perhaps better put, all the shortcomings of an EV would have been tolerable if ICE fuel was way too expensive.
But oil became reasonably priced again. EV battery & components are costly to put together, so an EV winds up at a price point way above the ICE. EV adoption looked to be dead for some time to come. The radicals (pick another word that suits) then decide to push the issue. They may be true believers and honestly believe EV's, wind turbines and solar panels will save the planet. I followed the events for over five decades and sometimes wish I could have been equally deluded.
However, I do not see things the same way. I do not see EV's and the green energy agenda being ready to handle the workload. Too many yet to be solved problems for them to be mainstream. Those drawbacks being made even more problematic due to the too soon date certains set for banning new ICE sales.

I can see EV and green energy issues worked out over time. I have no idea how long nor even if some can be fixed, but such may be possible. But we are faced with an agenda backed up by levels of force from authorities. Afraid my back is up a bit. I do not like being pushed. That has become an issue beyond the practical mechanical issues. I am able to have a home charger. I could do maybe 90% of my driving with an EV. I likely will not do so with the underhanded force and mandates being at least part of the reasons.

Not the only reasons to be sure. EV's still cost too much and have too many limitations. It will be expensive to set up a home charger at a safe distance from my home. I will want to have an ICE as well. I adopted LED lights as soon as they became cost effective. EV's are not there yet.

 

[sk47]

Electricity isn’t free either. Supply and demand will start kicking in and electric rates will go up.

Hello; I get my juice from TVA and a local power company. The local company buys from TVA. (TVA -Tennessee Valley Authority) I got notice of a near 10% rate increase in October 2024.

 

[markayash]

Anyone that mocks EVs needs to drive one! Even a cheaper one is great (besides Leaf and Toyobaru Soltera/b4zx). $25k will get an older Model 3 and maybe Mach-E or Kia EV6 / Hyundai Ioniq 5. All are absolute BLASTs to drive as dumb commuter appliances. Legitimately fun to drive when pushed, and super calm and comfortable when not. A bespoke EV chassis is heavy but rigid and with a super low center of gravity. makes most of them handle GREAT.

My next utility vehicle (currently a Forester) will probably be electric.

I was ready to buy one until I did research and realized a beach trip I do 3 or 4 time's a year would require a stop to recharge and it would cost the same as a tank of gas. My SUV gets 28 mpg and doesn't require a stop. Should also note a lot of these trips are at 1am and not uncommon to hit thunderstorms. last thing I want to do is sit at a charging station for an hour in a storm with 3 dogs in my car

 

[sukhoi_584th]

Where is all that electricity going to come from? Is the electric fairy going to wave her magic wand?

The electric grid has been growing since the day it was first installed. I don't understand this argument.

I don't see how. Ford loses 50K per EV sold. Only reason China's EV's are so cheap is the Chinese Gov subsidies.

The $50K is an amortized cost considering all of their corporate-wide EV dev costs. EVs are simpler to make than ICEs which is why Tesla has such a high valuation.

 

[markayash]

The electric grid has been growing since the day it was first installed. I don't understand this argument.



The $50K is an amortized cost considering all of their corporate-wide EV dev costs. EVs are simpler to make than ICEs which is why Tesla has such a high valuation.

Cali apparently doesn’t have enough power which is so silly it’s stupid since they are mandating them.

I also heard a lot of areas still have old outdated wiring and can’t handle the load of a bunch of electric cars.

IMHO if they really want us to buy them offer things like “ free home
Outlets” and more “ free charging “ not “ buy one or else !!!”

 

[Skye]

A few things I've been studying this morning I thought I'd post here.

Much of the discussion is of power production and power requirements.

In regards to power production, I couldn't find one site that would answer everything I was asking. Many of the sites listing new energy capacity, new projects, are stovepiped into individual companies and the states where the projects are. It's also difficult to determine how much new capacity is simply replacing old. It's complicated.

https://www.synapse-energy.com/tools/interactive-map-us-power-plants

This site lists power plants that are on-line now, where they are and how they produce that energy.

Power production is challenged by several broad requirements:

- Replacement of old, worn-out facilities and infrastructure
- Ever-more personal and business IT devices
- EVs
- Increased, at least temporary, destruction of infrastructure from more-powerful weather systems
- Increased loads from more powerful weather systems
- Bitcoin Mining
- Datacenters (cloud services, AI, etc.)

The last two also need a lot of water to sustain operations.

While there have been gains in efficiencies that free up capacity, lighting for example, as humans, we often see that as a gain: now, I can install more lighting. Running in-place.

Lawrence Livermore Labs produces a series of flow charts, showing where energy and water production goes, down to the state level.

In the Energy Charts, you'll see a category listed as "rejected energy"; that's the amount of energy generated lost from source to sink, due to thermal, transfer, conversion or other inefficiencies.

https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/

https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/commodities/energy

https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/commodities/water

As to the power requirements, what's done on the socket end of the infrastructure, this IEEE article (2022) lists some specific cases.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463709

IEEE is not pro or anti-EV. They're looking at things from engineering perspective. "You want to plug in X number of EVs into this infrastructure, this is what it's going to take to get there." Some communities are leaning forward. Others, are catching up.

Difficult to see removing any one of the power requirements is going to fix these issues. If one item is removed (in this example, EVs), us as humans will find ways to use that excess for something else (another home appliance, IT device, more lighting, a bigger Bitcoin farm, AI or cloud datacenter).

 

[K4fxd]

We are shutting down all our coal plants. Also shutting down Gas plants. Wind and solar will not replace them much less support increasing demand.

EV's might be practical if all we have are slow chargers. No one wants to wait 2 days to charge a car so we need fast chargers. To put 100Kw of energy into a storage device with zero loss takes 100Kw's of energy We can do 1kw per hour and it takes 100 hours We can use 100 Kw's and it takes an hour 200 and it takes 1/2 hour. Lets say we cap it at 200kw charging rate.


A typical "gas station" has 8 to 16 pumps. Lets now replace the pumps and add chargers, each capable of pulling 200 Kw from the grid. If all 16 are running we need to supply that one station with 3,200 kw's or 3.2 MW's A typical coal power plant will run about 100 of these fuel stations.

But people want to charge in 5 minuets and the faster you charge the more inefficient it gets.

Realistically at the 5 min charge rate a coal power plant will supply 5 to 10 fuel stations.

So again I ask where will all this power come from. I don't see any electric fairy's in my town.

 

[Skye]

With respect to power production, I can only speak to my own experience.

Until last year, our area utilized a series of coal-fired furnaces; this was the core of power production. Over a period of years and several projects, they've all been shutdown and replaced with gas turbines.

Like the furnace in my house, the coal engines had simply reached end-of-life. It wasn't cost-effective to continue to replace one bit here, another there, on a more frequent basis. The turbines used today are cheaper to operate than any new coal furnace. And we no longer pay to have a trainload of coal shipped into the area several times a month, then pay to have the ash shipped out.

Our area operates as a non-profit co-op. The monies saved from converting from coal to gas were committed to long-term expansion (more people, more requirements, replacing worn out items with new).

Other communities with other sources of energy might operate differently. And that's cool. For us, it was a no-brainer. Our conversion took several years, but I honestly don't remember any roadblocks or significant stoppages. We went out on the open market to purchase and install turbines and then did so.

YMMV.

 

[K4fxd]

Not too long ago they shut down a major coal plant out west. This plant supplied power to several states including Ca. They replaced it with a unit that only had the ability to generate 3/4 the amount of power the coal plant did. This is the typical reality.

Even if we were building new plants at the rate required, how many would it take to run the EV fuel stations? Is the EPA going to get out of the way? Where is all the new power lines going to come from? What about all the new right of way's that will need to be negotiated? What fuel or fuels will be used to generate all this electricity? How will all these things get paid for? What will the electric rate be?

 

[Skye]

For us, our community has several goals and plans, some stretching out decades. It's looked at not as a EV, device or business issue, but one of generation, capacity and need. We know what we produce now, what slack in capacity exists and have a general idea what's needed in the future.

As a consumer, my rates will increase over the next few years. They have to. Things wear out and need to be replaced. More and more people and businesses are moving here. Some have EVs. Others have TVs in every room. Still others are going to be data centers for corporations.

As to physical plants, lines and all that, in a big-picture view, if people in those new areas need those things, that's worked out with developers, the city and all that. There are existing processes in-place. If they need it, it will be built. If they balk where a line is run or the cost, it doesn't get built. If we balk as to what's going to be built and where, we negotiate that out. Somethings get done. Others not. Both sides see wins and losses. It depends.

With respect to energy generation, in our area, it''s generally a non-issue. We're handling the expansion and new needs well. But I'm aware of other communities and areas that are not. Earlier in the week, an article keyed-in on many of the questions you're asking. It involved data center expansion on the east coast. They need lines, a lot more generation capacity and a lot of water. The companies have the money, but individuals living in those communities do not want to see those resources depleted. Their issues are just now being discussed and those concerns worked out. It's gonna be a while.

 

[K4fxd]

I'm assuming you see the impossibility of banning Ice cars and trucks anytime in the near future?

 

[sk47]

The electric grid has been growing since the day it was first installed. I don't understand this argument.

Hello; A lot of activity since I last looked this thread. Your question has been addressed and maybe answered since you posted the above. Just in case more explanation is needed let me summarize. You are correct in that the grid has grown over time. I can recall a time with few lights and few appliances. So even before EV's there has been increasing demand all along.

A problem with EV demand is at least two fold. One being the total amount of energy required in the form of electricity if all transportation is EV's. Such is the stated goal is it not? No new ICE and let the old ICE fade away. Picture all the energy of millions of barrels of oil that now run vehicles being replaced by electricity. Part of that issue is the artificial timeline. 2030 or 2035 in some places. A timeline too soon.

Another fold of the issue is the rate of charging desired. The desire is to make an EV be similar to an ICE in terms of fueling up. So, charging has to be quick. To quickly push such loads into battery packs will require thicker & more heavy duty wires & connectors. Picture an extension chord being used to run a large space heater. A thin extension chord will get hot from forcing too much electricity thru it. So, you have to get a much thicker gauge wire to handle the load. Even with the thicker wire it will get warm but not as hot. That heat escaping from the wires is wasted electric energy in a real sense. To be able to charge in ten minutes you push more juice thru the wires. Pushing more juice causes more heat. The heat represents electric power that is not going into the battery. Rather it is warming the air.
Had fossil fuel oil actually peaked back in 2004 and supply dwindled we would have been forced to use EV's and would have had to accept the slow charging and short ranges as better than no transportation at all.

The $50K is an amortized cost considering all of their corporate-wide EV dev costs.

Hello; A duh sort of statement. Of course all the costs of building an EV are included not just the specific costs of the individual EV. I live in coal mine country. Millions of dollars can be spent to face up a mine and acquiree equipment before the first ton of coal is mined. In the end all the costs have to be added to each ton of coal and the same sort of thing for each EV.

Sponsored