I DON'T have the tick but I have the 2K Rattle

[bizlipkick]

I don't see how ford is replacing motors for a few years now and is mum on this

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[Condor1970]

If an engine had piston slap on that level, it would undoubtedly get progressively worse very quickly. Yet it doesn't.

We'll, if it is piston slap between 2-3k rpm, then I recommend we all gallop our ponies above 3,000rpm and drive as fast as possible like a psychotic maniac at all times, to minimize piston slap and the typewriter tick. We can use this as an excuse when we get speeding tickets.

 

[Wheat392]

I really don't think the Gen1 and Gen2 Coyotes exhibit the 2K rattle like the Gen3 Coyote. All 3 generations can exhibit the BBQ tick, but seems the 2K rattle is pretty much a Gen3 characteristic.

Checkout post #242, examples of all 3 generations making the same sound.

 

[GT Pony]

Checkout post #242, examples of all 3 generations making the same sound.

Not saying there might have been a few Gen1 and Gen2 Coyotes making engine noises around 2K, but with regard to the Gen3 it's way more prevalent. So if it's piston slap then maybe some Gen1 and Gen2 Coyotes had some bad manufacturing tolerances along the way. The reported instances of Gen1 and Gen2 "2K rattling" (here and on YouTube) is far far less than with the Gen3 engine.

 

[Wheat392]

Not saying there might have been a few Gen1 and Gen2 Coyotes making engine noises around 2K, but with regard to the Gen3 it's way more prevalent. So if it's piston slap then maybe some Gen1 and Gen2 Coyotes had some bad manufacturing tolerances along the way. The reported instances of Gen1 and Gen2 "2K rattling" (here and on YouTube) is far far less than with the Gen3 engine.

Agree, much more prevalent on 18+.

 

[Condor1970]

Gentlemen, not to throw a monkey in the wrench, but I honestly have not seen or heard a recording of 1 legit case of 2k rattle in any Generation of Coyote before 2018.

If you guys can find a legit link or posted recording, please prove me wrong. I say this because you have fuel rails that literally act like sound tubes transmitting resonant sound from the mechanical HPFP. That sound would end up all over the engine block, with almost no precise way to nail down the source. Worse than a wild goose chase, imo.

 

[Condor1970]

////opinions based on the gazillion threads//////

Piston slap *is* serious and will impact long term engine reliability. Putting my engineer diagnostic hat on several concerns pop out for me. And this is for all noises because I feel there is mass confusion regarding what noise is what. People hear things differently.
My major concerns are:

1. Why noises seem to start after 1st oil change. Be it tick etc.. The first oil change seems to trigger problems.

2. Do any of these years have cars with no noises or are some people more sensitive and report the problem compared to someone like my wife who couldn't figure out our car wasn't getting past 2nd gear. Her explanation, "it's overheating and doesn't go fast enough... etc... You get it.. So what's our sample rate?

3. From a basic diagnostic approach, the first question is: What has changed?
Manufacturing specs?
Manufacturing processes?
Tolerances on the line?
Training?
Poor quality suppliers?
Poor design?
Nothing wrong... BAU.... ie:the motor is just a noisy motor.

Having worked as an engineer for several large, very large, companies over my 40 years in the business, experience tells me that Ford knows exactly what the problem is and their reaction is typical. So it takes time for the actual root cause filters out to the field which explains why engines are being replace willy nilly depending upon dealer etc... There are a lot of levels in large companies like Ford and decisions are often based upon "shut the person up and hope he goes away" and so forth. In the scheme of things this is pennies to Ford the corporation. Not so for the dealer and lower on the food chain people.

So I leave it at that because there are far more knowledgeable folks than me on this and many other forums who have direct experiences with these troublesome issues.
I'm just looking at this from the 30,000 ft view and my conclusion is Ford knows what is wrong and needs to fix it NOW rather than stroke it along until a new motor is released.

First, a lot of people do report the tick and rattle before the first oil change. Like me. My 2k rattle was present from the day I bought it. Also, I did not "notice" the typewriter tick until about 500-800mi on the original factory oil. Both issues imo are moot, since the rattle has not changed one bit, regardless of oil used. The typewriter tick only varies slightly with different oil viscosities, and is primarily affected by oil pressure.

 

[Arcadia]

Large Companies like Ford do an internal cost/benefit analysis and based on that (and legal liability) make a decision on whether the issue is less costly to leave alone (warranty claims are less than the fix) or to fix it (warranty claims are more than the fix). Of course there are a few other considerations such as Brand Image and Ethical Reasons. As a reminder Ford was majorly exposed for this in the past (now a college ethics course mainstay) for the Pinto gas tanks ( https://www.popularmechanics.com/ca...e-engineering-failures-ford-pinto-fuel-tanks/ ).. An internal analysis was performed that showed it was cheaper not to fix the issue and have a few people injured/burned than it was to fix the problem - so it was not fixed (the fix was $11 per car). So Ford may not fix it at all if their analysis shows it is more cost effective not to make a fix. Now times have changed since the Pinto - but I am sure they will be doing some sort of analysis before they spend millions on a fix.

 

[bizlipkick]

and we don't know if a fix is even needed, as right now I think the replacement rate for motors in these cars seems to be about the same as Camaro s and challengers. Either way I'll be honest this is my 4th mustang, and probably my last. I am not freaking out to much about the noise but the fact it sounds like it does annoys the hell out of me. And of course when I took it to the dealer they tried to say it was the ssm for the typewriter tick. I know all cars have problems but the noise is loud, my service tech heard it clear as day, and the answer was they will cut my oil filter open on the next oil change. That's the first I have heard something like this in 20 some odd performance cars in my life. Sucks also because we were going to get the wife a new explorer.

 

[GT Pony]

The typewriter tick only varies slightly with different oil viscosities, and is primarily affected by oil pressure.

Until you can vary the oil pressure without changing the engine RPM, it would be hard to conclude the typewriter tick is all or mainly oil pressure related.

 

[Condor1970]

Until you can vary the oil pressure without changing the engine RPM, it would be hard to conclude the typewriter tick is all or mainly oil pressure related.

I've done that multiple times regardless of oil temperature. Pressure does drop slowly during warmup everytime. During startup when cold, and also when warm. The tick only occurs when pressure is below 30psi. The car starts and runs at 40psi on startup with no ticking. The tick starts very slightly at 30 psi, then is full on at 25 psi as oil pressure drops when warm. Yet as it gets even warmer and pressure continues to drop, the tick will go away at only 15psi. This is why I think it's Lash Adjusters. When the oil finally thins out enough due to higher temp, it will provide just enough to inflate the HLA's at idle, but not enough when slowly revving the engine up to around 2,000rpm with oil pressure still below 25psi. At this point the tick occurs when I rev the engine and it will continue until engine rpm reaches a point where it closes the oil pump bypass. The moment the bypass closes, and hot oil then goes above 30 psi, the tick vanishes. This occurs regardless of temperature or viscosity that I've used since ownership.
The main thing that seems to affect the tick, is whether or not oil pressure is above or below the 25-30psi range. The temperature only seems to affect it, because as it gets hotter and the tick goes away, is because it is thin enough to get into those passages and inflate the HLA.

The reason Ceratec works so well for "most" users with the tick, is because it increases lubricity of the oil to the point where those tightly fit HLA's will be able to inflate with the lower oil pressures. In fact, a few guys on here who said they switched to 0w30 or 0w40 oil, have said they have very little issues with the tick. Probably because that oil is so thin, it will provide better HLA inflation at idle. It also seems like a lot of people who switched to heavier 5w30 actually claim to hear a louder tick, like me. The thicker oil may be providing better bearing protection under heavy load, but it is slightly less capable of inflating the HLA's at low rpm.

I'm convinced that if we can figure out how to close the oil pump bypass at idle to keep oil pressure above 25psi at lower rpm, like most older engines used to do, then there will be no more tick issues. The only reason they run such low oil pressure at idle is to reduce load on the engine at idle for fuel efficiency.

 

[bootlegger]

Large Companies like Ford do an internal cost/benefit analysis and based on that (and legal liability) make a decision on whether the issue is less costly to leave alone (warranty claims are less than the fix) or to fix it (warranty claims are more than the fix). Of course there are a few other considerations such as Brand Image and Ethical Reasons. As a reminder Ford was majorly exposed for this in the past (now a college ethics course mainstay) for the Pinto gas tanks ( https://www.popularmechanics.com/ca...e-engineering-failures-ford-pinto-fuel-tanks/ ).. An internal analysis was performed that showed it was cheaper not to fix the issue and have a few people injured/burned than it was to fix the problem - so it was not fixed (the fix was $11 per car). So Ford may not fix it at all if their analysis shows it is more cost effective not to make a fix. Now times have changed since the Pinto - but I am sure they will be doing some sort of analysis before they spend millions on a fix.

They are still building engines/cars with the rattle today. If it had some link to detrimental damage in the engine, it would have been fixed for production. The cost analysis is usually relevant to minor issues, like 1/1000 injector failure or occasional accessory pulley failure. If every engine rolling off the line had an issue that drastically reduced the lifetime of the engine, the OEM would have a stop ship and nothing would leave the plant until the problem was resolved.

 

[Wheat392]

Gentlemen, not to throw a monkey in the wrench, but I honestly have not seen or heard a recording of 1 legit case of 2k rattle in any Generation of Coyote before 2018.

If you guys can find a legit link or posted recording, please prove me wrong. I say this because you have fuel rails that literally act like sound tubes transmitting resonant sound from the mechanical HPFP. That sound would end up all over the engine block, with almost no precise way to nail down the source. Worse than a wild goose chase, imo.

Check out post #242 with examples from all generations.

 

[Dfeeds]

I've done that multiple times regardless of oil temperature. Pressure does drop slowly during warmup everytime. During startup when cold, and also when warm. The tick only occurs when pressure is below 30psi. The car starts and runs at 40psi on startup with no ticking. The tick starts very slightly at 30 psi, then is full on at 25 psi as oil pressure drops when warm. Yet as it gets even warmer and pressure continues to drop, the tick will go away at only 15psi. This is why I think it's Lash Adjusters. When the oil finally thins out enough due to higher temp, it will provide just enough to inflate the HLA's at idle, but not enough when slowly revving the engine up to around 2,000rpm with oil pressure still below 25psi. At this point the tick occurs when I rev the engine and it will continue until engine rpm reaches a point where it closes the oil pump bypass. The moment the bypass closes, and hot oil then goes above 30 psi, the tick vanishes. This occurs regardless of temperature or viscosity that I've used since ownership.
The main thing that seems to affect the tick, is whether or not oil pressure is above or below the 25-30psi range. The temperature only seems to affect it, because as it gets hotter and the tick goes away, is because it is thin enough to get into those passages and inflate the HLA.

The reason Ceratec works so well for "most" users with the tick, is because it increases lubricity of the oil to the point where those tightly fit HLA's will be able to inflate with the lower oil pressures. In fact, a few guys on here who said they switched to 0w30 or 0w40 oil, have said they have very little issues with the tick. Probably because that oil is so thin, it will provide better HLA inflation at idle. It also seems like a lot of people who switched to heavier 5w30 actually claim to hear a louder tick, like me. The thicker oil may be providing better bearing protection under heavy load, but it is slightly less capable of inflating the HLA's at low rpm.

I'm convinced that if we can figure out how to close the oil pump bypass at idle to keep oil pressure above 25psi at lower rpm, like most older engines used to do, then there will be no more tick issues. The only reason they run such low oil pressure at idle is to reduce load on the engine at idle for fuel efficiency.

0w40 will be more viscous, at operating temp, than 5w30. Barring a 1 cst difference, 0w30 and 5w30 will be the same viscosity at operating temperature. Some 5w30s may be a bit less viscous, even (PP 5w30 is a borderline 5w20). The only difference is that, at cold start, the 0w may be a bit less viscous, but this quickly changes. The 0w40 may shear down to a 30, and the 0w30 could shear more than a 5w30, but that wouldn't be immediate and is dependent on the base oil and the formulations being compared. So if people are, in fact, having less tick problems with a 0w40 then it wouldn't be due to it being less viscous. It could be that the oil film thickness is greater and provides a better cushion. The 0w30 may, if it's using a better base oil, also hahe a thicker oil film.


Ceratec would actually increase an oils viscosity, anyways. It's additive properties, however, may provide more cushioning (going with the thicker oil film theory).

I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing with your theory, btw. I'm just stating that, if a less viscous oil does help prevent the bbq tick, then 0w40 would do the opposite of help it. Even when cold, any 0w oil is way more viscous than any oil commonly used at operating temperature.

 

[IronG]

I don't see how ford is replacing motors for a few years now and is mum on this

What do you mean? Ford (and every other mfr) has and still does replace engines. It is rare that you will ever see any car company talk about engine replacement. Or did you mean something else?

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